Beyond the Advent

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
mfdo86
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Beyond the Advent

Post by mfdo86 » 26 Feb 2012 03:15

Perhaps a discussion of some great sounding vintage speakers would interest a handful of members. I have been enjoying a fine pair of New Large Advents over the past year and am interested in trying another speaker. I personally like the simplicity of a great speaker that provides enough bass to eliminate the need for a sub. I've read good reviews on the Dahlquist DQ10, KLH(?17). I've always been impressed by my celestion DL6 for their size so would like to consider a large vintage celestion ditton speaker, but not sure what model may surpass the Advents. Anyway, would love to hear some thoughts on a speaker that would surpass my Advents.

Gear: technics SL1300 TT, Sansui AU7700 preamp, JWN tube amp(est.60wpc)

pivot
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by pivot » 26 Feb 2012 16:38

I don't have much listening time with "New large" Advents but assuming they are somewhat like the orignal Advent I would see if I could get a second pair and try stacking. I had orignal Advents stacked and heard stacked "Smaller" Advents many times. The phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" fits here.

Dahlquist DQ10, assuming you find a pair working right, were the first speaker I heard that "imaged". Not sure you would find the bass satisfyng on it's own. Your sixty watts of tube power would be on low limit of what can make Dahlquist get up and walk around. Depends on how loud you listen.

The "K" in KLH stands for Henry Kloss, the orignal Advent's designer. KLH 17s are fine but I would view them as proto-Advents.

The Advents competition at the time I got mine was the Dynaco A-25. This Danish SEAS design does not do the room shaking bass of the Advent but it is smooth and musical. For "stereo spectacular" recordings the Advents impress where with small ensemble recordings the A-25 might be the more realistic. The 21 year old me picked Advents but I bet the 59 year old me would pick Dynaco A-25s. Worth a listen if you can find a good pair.

mfdo86
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by mfdo86 » 27 Feb 2012 13:22

thanks for your input Pivot. Perhaps another speaker make is not worth spending my money on. BTW, the stacking thing which i have heard of before- would that really enhance my listening experience at moderate volume levels or would that just be a tactic for loud/large room filling sound? Also, if stacked Advents ? for you re: hookup. I run a tube amp with one pair of speaker jack outputs. Would that be sufficient power and how would i wire that? thanks.........Mark

pivot
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by pivot » 27 Feb 2012 14:48

The standard, if there is such a thing, stacked Advents were one on top of the other with tweeter up on the lower speaker and down on the the top speaker. Antoher approach was one speaker on a circa 8 inch stand with the second speaker directly on the floor next to it, both tweeters up. Advantage of second arrangment is it more stable, less likely to knock a speaker over.

Assuming the New Larger is 8 ohms like the original wire in parallel by placing a jumper from the + of one speaker of the pair to the + of the other, same with -. Use the 4 ohm tap of the amp if you have one.

If 4 ohm speakers like Smaller Advent wire in series, jumper from + of one speaker to the - of the other. Connect the 8 ohm tap of the amp to remaining + and common of the amp outputs to the remaining unconnected -.

The stacked speakers will be 3-6 db more sensitive then a single pair so will use less amp power to reach the same level, not more.

Do a "Google" and you can come up with the orignal Abso!ute Sound review from back in the day. I did not think at the time that the stacking was a just "goes louder" trick. I have never been a head banger.

Somebody else here had a pic of a double Advent "vintage" system he was experimenting with, perhaps he will speak up with more recent experiance.

jackfish
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by jackfish » 27 Feb 2012 20:06

If you can find a pair of AR9s in good condition they sound very, very good. Better yet would be a pair of AR-LST/2. Wow!

I had a stacked, double New Large Advent setup for several years. Pretty impressive with gobs of power from two Phase Linear 400 amps.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2571/music4v.jpg

mfdo86
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by mfdo86 » 28 Feb 2012 02:16

thanks Pivot and Jackfish, nice advise.

duficity
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by duficity » 28 Feb 2012 13:34

I used a set of Kef C-80 speakers for many years. they were advertised as the poor man's 104.3. It used the Kef "racetrack" oval woofer instead of the conjugal loaded push pull of the 104.3. Used the same tweeter. One of the first speakers to crossover the woofer at a low frequency and let the midrange do most of the work with no crossover in the main band. Most others at the time crossed over in the 600 to 1000hz range, right in the middle of the most sensitive hearing frequencies. Now, a lot of speakers use woofers crossed over below 200 hz.

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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by sagas » 01 Mar 2012 14:30

Pivot is correct concerning the DQ10's. I drive them at 100 wpc (they will take over double that) and they are happy enough.

Space and placement is key to getting the most out of them with good bass response. Originally a subwoofer was available but even though I have one I normally leave it off.

They usually came with pegs so they could sit on the floor (low stands were optional), but I found them lacking in image and bass. This is probably why they made the sub.

After building my own stands (slightly higher than the originals) there was a more than major improvement in both areas.

I have auditioned others ($3000. > $5000. +) but none have pushed me enough to reach for my wallet, but I am not suggesting you rush out and find a pair.

Most speakers of this age normally require re-conditioning (surrounds, caps, etc.) so you have to be prepared for some additional cost.

Some will disagree with me as far as the 10's are concerned but in the end you will buy what your ears tell you to.

Enjoy, Sagas

pivot
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by pivot » 01 Mar 2012 15:20

The shop I was a salesman in sold DQ10s. We ran them with either a hot-rodded pair of Dynaco Mk. III (they REALLY did 70 watts a channel after hot rodding) or McIntosh.

They sounded great with the Dynas but if you pushed them loud in the big listening room you could run out of gas. The bass of the the DQ10 seems a tad over damped with most solid state amps of the period but tubes or autoformer coupled McIntosh seemed to wake it up, but never to the gut rumbling level of Advents. Interesting the woofer in early orignal DQ10s was the same as the Advent woofer but very different box loading. I never cared for the Dahlquist version of "subwoofers" but we were trying to make them work with the passive crossover which may have made them sound "murky".

jake

Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by jake » 27 Mar 2012 15:00

I had a set of Dahlquist DQ-9's that would sound better organized than stacked Advents. Bass (ported) so awesome that a guy I know used them as bass subwoofers, he layed them down behind his Dahlquist esl's. For three months I rocked the house at 120 decibels, driving them with a big 90 pound Mitsubishi amp. They were never over driven, never seemed to come close.
The sound, though very seductive, seems homogenized though, detail lacking in delicate instruments. Great for rock and disco, not good for acoustic instruments. The big Advents I have run sound disorganized by comparison. Sold them all off, I found the Advents lacking in focus, and the Dahlquists had too much focus.
DQ-9's would make excellent speakers for a bar or dance party though.

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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by pivot » 27 Mar 2012 16:14

I am beting you had a set of DQM-9 speakers. The "M" in the model names stands for "monitor" which is a nice way of saying "cones-and-domes-in-a-box".

Really an apples and oranges comparison to mention DQM series speakers in the same breath as DQ-10s. The box speakers were not designed by Jon Dahlquist and really have very limited relation to the orignal design.

In many ways the DQ-10 sounded unique at the time. However the DQMs were just another set of monkey coffins.

jake

Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by jake » 28 Mar 2012 13:32

Did not have the "M" iteration, have seen photos on line and the box is different shape and color. However, agree that esl's have boxes and cones beat.

pivot
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by pivot » 28 Mar 2012 14:50

See here:

http://dahlquistspeakers.com/ (..and click on the "service" tab)

Images of pretty much the whole DQ and DQM line as I know it.

No "9" in the DQ series. Only "DQ" I recall hearing were variations of the "10" and a brief listen to a pair of "20".

Do you have a picture online somewhere of the "DQ-9"?

Only "9" in the Dahliquist brand I know of were the "DQM" and "DQMc". DQM were standard looking (..and IMHO pretty standard sounding) box speakers.

fscl
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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by fscl » 28 Mar 2012 15:27

IIRC was blown away by the stacked large Advents when heard long ago..... :shock: =D> :)

Don't have Advents and true to topic subject moved beyond and have stacked some older gear, t2t, B & W 602 S3s plugged port and vintage Yami NS 5s hooked in series as suggested by Pivot. I'm very pleased with the sound. :) :)

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vinta ... 04275.html

They are stacked but toed in at different angles and tied in through the sub really deliver on DVDs......... :D :D :D and makes up for my 25" XBR Trinitron.... :shock: :shock: :D

Fred

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Re: Beyond the Advent

Post by KentT » 09 Apr 2012 14:25

Stacking Double Advents not recommended. And a 2 ohm or worse load which virtually no amplifier will tolerate.

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