Bearing oil replacement

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cafe latte
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 19 Mar 2018 22:38

blakep wrote:As I said in the other thread, I've run motor oil in both the original and inverted Michell bearings, as per Michell's instructions, for 35 years, 21 with the original bearing and the past twelve with the new inverted bearing.

No problems with either. Is my bearing damaged? If it is, I sure can't hear it. Sounds good enough to me.

But I'm supposed to listen to two guys (as opposed to the manufacturer), both of which seem to have no experience with my table, and whose advice is totally contradictory to the manufacturers' instructions as well as 35 years of positive experience from following those instructions.

OK. Seems very rational to me.

I also can't recall once in the the 20 years that I've been reading audio forums ever reading about anyone having to replace a Michell bearing.
All fine but the oil advice the manufacture is giving does not make sense for the reasons I stated, not at all. Google oils yourself it is quite interesting read about the differences between motor oils (modern ones and older ones) and machine oils too. Then check out compressor oils with safe anti wear additives available synthetic and any weight you want. Then you may understand why I dont get it about mobile 1 in this application.
CHris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 20 Mar 2018 07:49

cafe latte wrote:
blakep wrote:As I said in the other thread, I've run motor oil in both the original and inverted Michell bearings, as per Michell's instructions, for 35 years, 21 with the original bearing and the past twelve with the new inverted bearing.

No problems with either. Is my bearing damaged? If it is, I sure can't hear it. Sounds good enough to me.

But I'm supposed to listen to two guys (as opposed to the manufacturer), both of which seem to have no experience with my table, and whose advice is totally contradictory to the manufacturers' instructions as well as 35 years of positive experience from following those instructions.

OK. Seems very rational to me.

I also can't recall once in the the 20 years that I've been reading audio forums ever reading about anyone having to replace a Michell bearing.
All fine but the oil advice the manufacture is giving does not make sense for the reasons I stated, not at all. Google oils yourself it is quite interesting read about the differences between motor oils (modern ones and older ones) and machine oils too. Then check out compressor oils with safe anti wear additives available synthetic and any weight you want. Then you may understand why I dont get it about mobile 1 in this application.
CHris
The thing is that we are several owners of Michell decks that have stated that none of us have any of the problems that you describe. The bearings in both of my Michell turntables looks minty and shiny, blakep who probably has had his Michell deck for the longest time in here also stated that he has had no problems with the bearings he has used during the years.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 20 Mar 2018 08:23

GyroSE wrote:
cafe latte wrote:
blakep wrote:As I said in the other thread, I've run motor oil in both the original and inverted Michell bearings, as per Michell's instructions, for 35 years, 21 with the original bearing and the past twelve with the new inverted bearing.

No problems with either. Is my bearing damaged? If it is, I sure can't hear it. Sounds good enough to me.

But I'm supposed to listen to two guys (as opposed to the manufacturer), both of which seem to have no experience with my table, and whose advice is totally contradictory to the manufacturers' instructions as well as 35 years of positive experience from following those instructions.

OK. Seems very rational to me.

I also can't recall once in the the 20 years that I've been reading audio forums ever reading about anyone having to replace a Michell bearing.
All fine but the oil advice the manufacture is giving does not make sense for the reasons I stated, not at all. Google oils yourself it is quite interesting read about the differences between motor oils (modern ones and older ones) and machine oils too. Then check out compressor oils with safe anti wear additives available synthetic and any weight you want. Then you may understand why I dont get it about mobile 1 in this application.
CHris
The thing is that we are several owners of Michell decks that have stated that none of us have any of the problems that you describe. The bearings in both of my Michell turntables looks minty and shiny, blakep who probably has had his Michell deck for the longest time in here also stated that he has had no problems with the bearings he has used during the years.
Yes but it does not mean you have optimum oil.. I have a Dozer that ran for years with injector pipes crossed over and it did loads of work like this, it is fine and all seems well, or is it??
YOU where YOU live it is fine with engine oil in a turntable bearing, but would it be the same story in the wet season where I live?
Also how to you measure wear, how long does it take suspended particles due to an oil additive being wrong to wear a bearing to audibly increase rumble?
It could be years and years, depending on turntable use it could be decades to see issues.
Point is engine oil in the application is not correct and this is known fact have a google. The oil you guys are using may be ok, but a correct weight machine oil WILL be better in so many ways, less wear and less corrosion. Still waiting for Mitchell to email me, me thinks they are maybe doing their own research after my email... Or they dont know what to say....
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 20 Mar 2018 08:33

me thinks they are maybe doing their own research after my email... Or they dont know what to say....
Or probably just getting on with producing some of the best turntables in the world...

You also said along the lines of small family run business like they’re some mom and pop operation, Michell have been around for a very long time and are very well respected.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 20 Mar 2018 09:27

cafe latte wrote: Yes but it does not mean you have optimum oil.. I have a Dozer that ran for years with injector pipes crossed over and it did loads of work like this, it is fine and all seems well, or is it??
YOU where YOU live it is fine with engine oil in a turntable bearing, but would it be the same story in the wet season where I live?
Also how to you measure wear, how long does it take suspended particles due to an oil additive being wrong to wear a bearing to audibly increase rumble?
It could be years and years, depending on turntable use it could be decades to see issues.
Point is engine oil in the application is not correct and this is known fact have a google. The oil you guys are using may be ok, but a correct weight machine oil WILL be better in so many ways, less wear and less corrosion. Still waiting for Mitchell to email me, me thinks they are maybe doing their own research after my email... Or they dont know what to say....
Chris
Of course there are differences in the climate between Australia and Sweden and of course we use different oils in the engines of our cars and you probably have tropical air filters as well in your car. But we're talking about turntables here and the turntable bearing is quite another environment than the inside of an engine. When motor oil gets heated up it changes both character and consistency as well- you never get that kind of heat and friction force in a turntable bearing. As I mentioned before the old oil looks the same as the new one when I make oil changes every second or third year. I always examine both the old oil and the bearing itself up close everytime I change oil and I've never seen any particles in the old oil neither have I noticed that the bearing itself has been damaged. So the oil that Michell recommends us to use with their products seems to work very well.

As mentioned Michell Engineering is a small family run company so from time to time they can be very busy. I believe they'll give you an answer as soon as possible.
Last edited by GyroSE on 20 Mar 2018 09:32, edited 1 time in total.

hand of ike
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 20 Mar 2018 09:32

My feeling is that Michell would see this as guilding the lily, they’ve done their research and they’ve gone with an oil formula that gives great performance for their product...

If you look inside the bearing at the precision of it and the way the oil is delivered you’d know these guys aren’t just messing around. And the introduction of an inverted bearing for the later models shows the level of focus they have in this area. I doubt they’d have overlooked the oil element.

That everyone I’ve heard from says their bearing is clean and pristine and as GyroSE says never heard anyone having to replace a worn bearing might suggest that this is going down the flogging a dead horse route. However I will be interested in hearing Michell’s reply.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 20 Mar 2018 10:24

GyroSE wrote:
cafe latte wrote: Yes but it does not mean you have optimum oil.. I have a Dozer that ran for years with injector pipes crossed over and it did loads of work like this, it is fine and all seems well, or is it??
YOU where YOU live it is fine with engine oil in a turntable bearing, but would it be the same story in the wet season where I live?
Also how to you measure wear, how long does it take suspended particles due to an oil additive being wrong to wear a bearing to audibly increase rumble?
It could be years and years, depending on turntable use it could be decades to see issues.
Point is engine oil in the application is not correct and this is known fact have a google. The oil you guys are using may be ok, but a correct weight machine oil WILL be better in so many ways, less wear and less corrosion. Still waiting for Mitchell to email me, me thinks they are maybe doing their own research after my email... Or they dont know what to say....
Chris
Of course there are differences in the climate between Australia and Sweden and of course we use different oils in the engines of our cars and you probably have tropical air filters as well in your car. But we're talking about turntables here and the turntable bearing is quite another environment than the inside of an engine. When motor oil gets heated up it changes both character and consistency as well- you never get that kind of heat and friction force in a turntable bearing. As I mentioned before the old oil looks the same as the new one when I make oil changes every second or third year. I always examine both the old oil and the bearing itself up close everytime I change oil and I've never seen any particles in the old oil neither have I noticed that the bearing itself has been damaged. So the oil that Michell recommends us to use with their products seems to work very well.

As mentioned Michell Engineering is a small family run company so from time to time they can be very busy. I believe they'll give you an answer as soon as possible.
The differences between where we live is here there is huge humidity so an engine oil in an open bearing WILL absorb water, no if no buts it WILL as for months it is max humidity here. Here engine oil in a bearing which is open there WILL be issues.
I am sure Mitchell has done research and I hope they reply soon, but I do believe they have made an error with the oil recommendation. Maybe they are amazing TT designers but dont understand oil totally all good.
They are an amazing turntable but they can make errors with oil it IS possible, maybe they dont study oil, maybe they did not consider tropical turntable use, lots of possibilities, but mobile 1 is not a good plan in an open bearing for so many reasons (DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!). I will post Mitchell response whatever it is anyway. I post here on VE to help not to battle and I went to this thread as I know there are issues with motor oil in this application . You do what you want but threads stick around and are read by many and advice becomes fact (not right). I know the shortfalls of motor oil in this application and if anyone reading this spends time to google will find the same. Just trying to help but it seems getting a lot of resistance.. Not here to battle..
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 20 Mar 2018 10:39

cafe latte wrote:
GyroSE wrote:
cafe latte wrote: Yes but it does not mean you have optimum oil.. I have a Dozer that ran for years with injector pipes crossed over and it did loads of work like this, it is fine and all seems well, or is it??
YOU where YOU live it is fine with engine oil in a turntable bearing, but would it be the same story in the wet season where I live?
Also how to you measure wear, how long does it take suspended particles due to an oil additive being wrong to wear a bearing to audibly increase rumble?
It could be years and years, depending on turntable use it could be decades to see issues.
Point is engine oil in the application is not correct and this is known fact have a google. The oil you guys are using may be ok, but a correct weight machine oil WILL be better in so many ways, less wear and less corrosion. Still waiting for Mitchell to email me, me thinks they are maybe doing their own research after my email... Or they dont know what to say....
Chris
Of course there are differences in the climate between Australia and Sweden and of course we use different oils in the engines of our cars and you probably have tropical air filters as well in your car. But we're talking about turntables here and the turntable bearing is quite another environment than the inside of an engine. When motor oil gets heated up it changes both character and consistency as well- you never get that kind of heat and friction force in a turntable bearing. As I mentioned before the old oil looks the same as the new one when I make oil changes every second or third year. I always examine both the old oil and the bearing itself up close everytime I change oil and I've never seen any particles in the old oil neither have I noticed that the bearing itself has been damaged. So the oil that Michell recommends us to use with their products seems to work very well.

As mentioned Michell Engineering is a small family run company so from time to time they can be very busy. I believe they'll give you an answer as soon as possible.
The differences between where we live is here there is huge humidity so an engine oil in an open bearing WILL absorb water, no if no buts it WILL as for months it is max humidity here. Here engine oil in a bearing which is open there WILL be issues.
I am sure Mitchell has done research and I hope they reply soon, but I do believe they have made an error with the oil recommendation. Maybe they are amazing TT designers but dont understand oil totally all good.
They are an amazing turntable but they can make errors with oil it IS possible, maybe they dont study oil, maybe they did not consider tropical turntable use, lots of possibilities, but mobile 1 is not a good plan in an open bearing for so many reasons (DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!). I will post Mitchell response whatever it is anyway. I post here on VE to help not to battle and I went to this thread as I know there are issues with motor oil in this application . You do what you want but threads stick around and are read by many and advice becomes fact (not right). I know the shortfalls of motor oil in this application and if anyone reading this spends time to google will find the same. Just trying to help but it seems getting a lot of resistance.. Not here to battle..
Chris
I hear you Chris - let’s not battle

But just for clarity it is you who is recommending something other than what the manufacturer suggests and as I’ve ssid before even minor things like this can have a detrimental effect on warranties etc...

Just to be clear for those that are re reading this that we are only stating what the manufacturer suggests with the proviso that they probably have a very good reason..

If we we’re suggesting a retro fit or tweek I’d understand your call for miss information but we aren’t.

No hostility to you, yeah let’s see what Michell say....

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 20 Mar 2018 10:54

cafe latte wrote: The differences between where we live is here there is huge humidity so an engine oil in an open bearing WILL absorb water, no if no buts it WILL as for months it is max humidity here. Here engine oil in a bearing which is open there WILL be issues.
I am sure Mitchell has done research and I hope they reply soon, but I do believe they have made an error with the oil recommendation. Maybe they are amazing TT designers but dont understand oil totally all good.
They are an amazing turntable but they can make errors with oil it IS possible, maybe they dont study oil, maybe they did not consider tropical turntable use, lots of possibilities, but mobile 1 is not a good plan in an open bearing for so many reasons (DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!). I will post Mitchell response whatever it is anyway. I post here on VE to help not to battle and I went to this thread as I know there are issues with motor oil in this application . You do what you want but threads stick around and are read by many and advice becomes fact (not right). I know the shortfalls of motor oil in this application and if anyone reading this spends time to google will find the same. Just trying to help but it seems getting a lot of resistance.. Not here to battle..
Chris
I don't think anyone of us want a battle but I do believe we all want you to prove your thesis as we all have bearings in good condition after using this kind of oil.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by Cyreg » 20 Mar 2018 14:06

OK, I just searched for main bearing oil from Michell:

- found at least 3 same size plastic little bottles with different colour of caps
- nothing to recognize if it's really coming from Michell(no extra packaging)
- prices varying from 4 Euro to 12 GBP
- some providers talk about syntetic oil, but not all...

Want no part of oilwar, but what to buy to be sure that I get what Michell wants me to use???? :shock:

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 20 Mar 2018 14:11

Cyreg wrote:OK, I just searched for main bearing oil from Michell:

- found at least 3 same size plastic little bottles with different colour of caps
- nothing to recognize if it's really coming from Michell(no extra packaging)
- prices varying from 4 Euro to 12 GBP
- some providers talk about syntetic oil, but not all...

Want no part of oilwar, but what to buy to be sure that I get what Michell wants me to use???? :shock:
If you want one of those small bottles then get in touch with Michell directly- they can help you.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 20 Mar 2018 14:28

Want no part of oilwar
That’s funny!! Oilwar, nobody ever went to war over something as insignificant as oil did they???

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 20 Mar 2018 14:41

hand of ike wrote:
Want no part of oilwar
That’s funny!! Oilwar, nobody ever went to war over something as insignificant as oil did they???
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 00:03

Still no response from Mitchell, maybe need to send another email?
I am not suggesting a big step away from what the manufacture recommended just a similar oil without the bad additives which may have issues in open bearings without an oil filter and an oil more suited to its use ie in a low speed bronze bearing. In other words I am suggesting using an oil with a cSt viscosity of 75 at 40 degrees (the 0w part of the 0w40). The 40 part is the viscosity at 100 degrees which your turntable bearing will never reach unless something has gone horribly wrong or it is rather hot in the listening room :lol:
The main reason I started posting on this thread is I knew from previous reading that Mobile one has VERY high detergents in it which is great for keeping high performance engines clean but not good at all in a turntable bearing. Basically any grit or tiny metal bits will float around in your bearing aiding wearing instead of settling safely out. In a turntable bearing a multi grade is pointless as the turntable bearing never gets hot. Also the type wear forces are different, again in an engine you need protection at high rpm, in a turntable you need to maintain a stable oil film at much lower rpm and just rotational forces.
So with this in mind an oil for a turbine would make a lot more sense than a car engine oil and they are available at just about any weight with the correct additives with low detergents and very very good anti wear agent (think turbines) but safe for bronze.
Now back to weight the Mobile one you are all using is 0w40 and as I said it never gets to its 40 due to turntable bearing being cold so only interested in the 0w bit, if we cross reference this on oil charts you need a machine oil, compressor oil or turbine oil of iso 68, maybe a iso 100 will also be acceptable, but I would choose iso 68, actually iso 68 is very close both hot and cold, but not important.
I could explain more detailed, but can you guys start to see why Mobile one in this application does not make any sense?
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 06:49

Hi Chris,

I think we are going around in circles here. I don’t think anyone is doubting what you are saying regarding oil constitution. We are only saying that it’s application might not be relivant here due to the manufacturer suggesting something different and our experience.

If this thread had attracted a slew of users whose bearings were shot then it would be different. But this is not our experience. I’m sure if a problem had arisen with this Michell would be aware by now and would have done something out this, they have been trading since the 1980’s.

I know you aren’t suggesting anything radical. My point there was you were posting about there being misinformation in this thread even using SHOUTY capitals about it when the information we were stating is inline with manufacturer - the degree of divergence is irrelevant here.

Again I can’t see at any point where someone has questioned your information, just it’s application for our turntable.

Our stance is with the recommendation from the manufactorer which I think is valid.

Give Michell time, on their site I think it suggests that they attempt to get back to each email within a week. I’ve had all my replies within 3 days but I have asked questions about operation and stated I owned the turntable - they probably prioritise there time accordingly.

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