Stanton 881s VTF question

the thin end of the wedge
JPM
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 11 Jun 2019 17:07

Well, thanks all.

Interesting to see your tests confirmed that setting the VTF with brush on using just the scales calls will roughly equate to the tonearm markings, Japi. That's one mystery solved.

Not wanting to confuse matters too much, but I was interested to see this opinion from Needlestein on another forum discussing brushes on Stantons and Pickerings.....

"Installing the brush is easy. Just set your VTF and SRA without the brush attached. Then just attach the brush. The extra gram of weight the brush adds to the cartridge is offset by the 1 gram of resistance the bristles offer. However, where you need to set the extra gram is not to the VTF but to the antiskate to compensate for the additional gram of force the brush will have laterally.

So if after set up, your VTF is 1.2, attach the brush and set the AS to 2.2. Done"

H. callahan
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by H. callahan » 11 Jun 2019 17:10

@ Japi Roelofs :

Neither do i own a 881s nor a TF-scale.
All i wanted to do was help, i did not know how much of a difference it would make, but as your experiment does show it does make a difference, as i assumed.
Now the difference obviously is negligible, but could have been (a lot) bigger.

Anyway, thanks to your experiment, JPM now can be sure to correctly set TF on his tt.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by rewfew » 11 Jun 2019 17:12

My scale is different, but I've noticed more of a variable to the readings when the stylus is not put near the center of the scale. Noticing your stylus more towards the outer part of the circle to get both brush and stylus within it. Will it make much of a difference, the discrepancy? I have a Stanton 981 HZS with aftermarket stylus. But I don't use the dust brush.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by H. callahan » 11 Jun 2019 17:17

@ JPM:

To test this Japi might try to make the measurement, where the stylus is on the sensitive area of the scale while the brush i lowered onto the non-sensitive area and see what VTF then can be measured.

But as the brush also should create a skating force, the anti-skating-setting has to be set to the complete downforce the cartridge is pressed into the groove. Probably even more because i assume that the bristles of the brush will create more friction in the grooves than the stylus will. Would be strange if not mentioned in the manual of the cartridge.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by H. callahan » 11 Jun 2019 17:36

@ Japi Roelofs :

Though, thinking about it, your experiment only does show the inaccuracy of your scale when the stylus/brush is not in the middle of the sensitive area. It doesn´t really answer my question which was:
H. callahan wrote:
11 Jun 2019 15:52
What do you mean by "brush attached but not touching the scale"?

Japi Roelofs
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by Japi Roelofs » 11 Jun 2019 17:38

Well I'm messing with the 881, the scales and the camera anyway... so here's some more pics.

I propped up the brush again, this time using an elastic band. Set tracking force to 1.5 gr with the stylus on the middle of the scales, and then moved it around a bit.
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So yes, there's some different readings. But with a tracking force range of half a gram (0.75 to 1.25), a couple of thousands or even hundredths of a gram aren't going to make a big difference...

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 11 Jun 2019 17:43

Interesting......I also wonder if, after setting at 2.5grams with brush on, the brush was then removed completely (but without then zeroing the arm again) would the resulting TF on just the stylus tip be roughly 1.5 grams?

If so, it may tend to confirm Needlestein's recommendation that all that matters is that the VTF is set on the stylus, then just pop the brush on afterward (but with further AS adjustment).

JPM
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 11 Jun 2019 17:46

It is a bit of a shame that Stanton and Pickering were so coy about fully explaining the function of the brush, and manner in which it worked. Simply stating to set the counterweight an additional gram was a bit... elliptical (sorry....I'll get my coat).

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by H. callahan » 12 Jun 2019 01:14

JPM wrote:
11 Jun 2019 17:43
Interesting......I also wonder if, after setting at 2.5grams with brush on, the brush was then removed completely (but without then zeroing the arm again) would the resulting TF on just the stylus tip be roughly 1.5 grams?

If so, it may tend to confirm Needlestein's recommendation that all that matters is that the VTF is set on the stylus, then just pop the brush on afterward (but with further AS adjustment).
When you remove the brush without changing the counterweight, the downforce will decrease. You could test what happens.
But if the brush would add 1g to downforce by its own weight one would not have to add 1g to downforce as the manual suggests. Then the manual would say "zero the tonearm without brush attached, dial in desired TF and put the brush on". But as it doesn´t say so i assume its not that easy.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 12:24

True.

Unhelpfully, from memory the manual just says add around 1 gram of TF for the brush. I don't think it states whether you need to zero the arm again once the brush has gone back on and then dial in +2.5 grams, or if you just add 1 gram of TF to the arm as it was zeroed w/o brush. I'll double check tonight, but I think the explanation is rudimentary.

If you re-zero the arm after brush goes on before dialling to +2.5, then, given brush weight plus added TF, that is potentially quite different to just "adding +1 gram of TF" to an arm that was zeroed w/o brush.

I may have to do a few experiments this weekend when I have the time!

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 12:45

Ok... so just checked the manual. It states "balance the tonearm and mounted cartridge according to turntable manufacturer's instructions. At balance brush and stylus tip should just clear the record. Arm setting with brush 2 grams +/- 1/4, Resulting TF 1 gram +/- 1/4, Arm setting without brush 1 gram +/- 1/4."

A bit opaque and not entirely useful other than confirming the TF the stylus should present should be 1 gram +/- 1/4.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 14:04

Thinking about it, my gut instinct is that it comes down to this....

If you balance the arm w/o the brush, set the TF to 1.5, then you can simply just add the brush if and when you want with the only further adjustment being +1 gram to the AS, not the VTF.

This approach should approximate the same relative outcome as if you were to balance the arm with the brush on and then set the counterweight to 2.5 grams of VTF and AS of 2.5.

The difference between the counterweight's positional stating point when balancing with the brush vs balancing the arm w/o the brush will be approximately 1 gram further back on the arm due to the added 1 gram weight of the brush, so when dialling to 2.5 grams from that position this should leave the counterweight in almost the exact same position as if you were to balance the arm w/o brush, set to 1.5 VTF and then add the brush (due to the added 1 gram of weight being added after balancing).

On that basis, I think it will be acceptable to set the VTF to the desired force on a digital scale w/o the brush, then simply add the brush and adjust the AS for the extra weight.

I think Needlestein is ultimately correct, but that there are a few different methods by which the same resulting stylus force can be achieved.

As is always the case in life, a problem shared is a problem halved, so thanks for all the good input. Forced me to think through the logic of it to confirm the answer.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 14:23

The brush is likely self supporting, which correlates to what Japi found. So when using a scales don't set the VTF to 2.5 grams because that will add an unnecessary 1 gram to the VTF. I it sounds right and tracks right with the 1.5 grams on the scales, then it likely is right.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by sasi » 12 Jun 2019 19:34

When I was playing with the 681, there were times I wanted the brush and others that I didn't. The brush had to be on for warped records mostly.

After some experimentation, I discovered that the brush itself compensates for the extra VTF required. So, remove the brush, balance the tonearm, set it for 1,5g and you are done. If you want the brush, just mount it and no further adjustment needed.

I didn't have a digital scale back then but this made me curious to weigh the brush by itself. I bet it will read 1,0g.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 19:46

Yep, that's it, Sasi. That's what I figured too given that the zeroing of the arm with the brush on and dialling to 2.5 is almost certain to be the same counterweight position as zeroing the arm with it off and then dialling to 1.5.

The brush weighs just a fraction over 1 gram....
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