Pictures of your Thorens

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euromut
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by euromut » 24 May 2019 16:34

Set up in my new home. Rewired the Audiomods S5 arm with Cardas Cear (Silk) wire. Sounding Lovely.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/479 ... 0f83_h.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/7811/4684 ... 16f3_h.jpg

terzinator
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by terzinator » 27 May 2019 14:30

really nice. That TD160 is gorgeous.

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 11 Jun 2019 22:44

Hi all! My first post are some pics of my TD160 BC MkII with what I now know is a Hitachi AU-800 arm. I bought it back in early '80's, and I vaguely remember it beeing said the arm was Hitachi, but I never could find any info on it. Until I found the picture of the Hitachi Lo-D HT-840 tt, in the database here on on vinylengine. What a relief, after almost 40 years of wondering...
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In the pics it sits with an Ortofon 2m Red, which I thought I could live with after breaking the needle on my DL-103. Sadly it doesn't come close to the Denon, so now I'm waiting for a new 103 with new headshell.
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It's a rebuild project just starting, I'm considering a new plinth, but haven't decided on anything yet. I'd like to make one from a nice piece of local oak, but it's hard to find. As you might understand from the beat up headshell, I've had problems getting it set up right. After finding the data on the arm here on vinylengine, I have finally moved the arm to the right position :). It was 10mm off, so nothing was right. Until now :).
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It's been without a bottom plate for some time, so a new is a must. I need a new mounting plate for the tonearm, the original is a little worn after disassembly and new holes. Can original type plates be found? (I've seen metal plates.)

Finally, thanks for sharing all the great info and pictures of your amazing turntables and works of art =D>
Regards,
Dagfinn

tlscapital
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2019 08:28

dagfinn wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:44
Hi all! My first post are some pics of my TD160 BC MkII with what I now know is a Hitachi AU-800 arm.
I don't know this tonearm but it looks really nice and seem to be of the heavier side of medium effective mass. Which for a Denon DL-103 might benefit some from a little effective mass addition for what it's worth. Heavier headshell...
dagfinn wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:44
In the pics it sits with an Ortofon 2m Red, which I thought I could live with after breaking the needle on my DL-103. Sadly it doesn't come close to the Denon, so now I'm waiting for a new 103 with new headshell.
Even if the Ortofon 2M 'Red' cartridge might be a better fit for this tonearm effective mass as it is, it's not such a great cartridge on it's own and even less so in comparison with a Denon DL-103. So yes, get a new Denon DL-103.
dagfinn wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:44
It's a rebuild project just starting, I'm considering a new plinth, but haven't decided on anything yet. I'd like to make one from a nice piece of local oak, but it's hard to find. As you might understand from the beat up headshell, I've had problems getting it set up right. After finding the data on the arm here on vinylengine, I have finally moved the arm to the right position :). It was 10mm off, so nothing was right. Until now :).
I had my solid wood thick plinth tailor made done by a woodcraft friend of mine with spare pieces of an old beechwood stairs I've had dismantle in my home. So it only took drawings and patience on my behalf though. Plus the coatings.
dagfinn wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:44
It's been without a bottom plate for some time, so a new is a must.
While you're at it, make sure to improve the "inertia" of your turntable. There's much more than one way to do so depending on the room and the need one has. But it's really revealing how much focus in imagery can be brought.

The bottom plate will likely have some "feet" (spikes, sorbothane...), so depending on what support you will rest the turntable on, while "designing" the bottom plate you can choose to add mass (sand, plasticine, concrete...) there.
dagfinn wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:44
I need a new mounting plate for the tonearm, the original is a little worn after disassembly and new holes. Can original type plates be found? (I've seen metal plates

Dagfinn
Well Dagfinn if this is only an esthetical issue, I would dive into that last. What material is it made of now ? You could do test with wood and alloy. Those can even be cut from one piece by some skilled crafts men for affordable money.

Yet be weary that it's always very depending of your turntable and tonearm assembly in interaction and the rest of your phono chain calibration. As everything in the phono world, there is no universal better. It's always a whole.

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 12 Jun 2019 10:01

Hi tls, and thanks for your reply, I appreciate it a lot. I've never had time to do this, so I'd like to do it... well. I don't have unlimited resources, so it's a low budget project (I hope).

The 2M Red seems a little off balance, heavy bottom and lacking in the top half. I've had a 103 for many years, and it fits my music - makes it feel real. The tonearm, as you say - it's fairly heavy, so a 103 should be a good match in theory as well.

I'm with you on the headshell, I'm already waiting for an Ortofon LH-2000 weighing 15,5g. Looks nice too :).
https://www.ortofon.com/media/148334/lh ... quality=80

I think the Denon is about 8,5g, which makes a total of 24g, 5g under the recommended max of 29g for this arm. It's backordered, so I'm a little impatient - the 103 will be here tomorrow.

I'm trying to do the woodcraft myself, so I have some 2x4" pine I'll practice with. I have a new saw, but i'm not sure about the precision. Or my skills ;). But I think a solid wood plinth improves the sonic properties of the tt.

For the bottom plate, I have a piece of butcher's block bamboo coming as a first attempt :lol: . It's 3,5 kg, so it should help inertia. I'm experimenting, and my idea is that this bamboo is fairly low in resonance, very stiff and stable.
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0711717_ ... S5.JPG?f=l
And feet, yes, very unsure about that. Spikes or rubber?

About mounting plate: metal looks nice, but is hard to work with. I don't have the right tools. Also, I'm not sure about sonic properties. The original is pressed cardboard like - don't know the name, but I believe it is fairly dead and with very different properties than metal. As it is, the mounting is not perfect due to surface bulging in the soft material, and not quite flat, so I think replacing it is just as well. I guess I'll do as you say, experiment with different materials and see what sounds best. So actually, looks is secondary to audio quality.

Thanks again for your thoughts, it's nice to see that I'm on the right track with my early plans :).

tlscapital
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2019 15:32

dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 10:01
Hi tls, and thanks for your reply, I appreciate it a lot. I've never had time to do this, so I'd like to do it... well. I don't have unlimited resources, so it's a low budget project (I hope).
Same here; I started my journey into DIY tweaks on a budget and sold on the original parts to fund the followings. Yet the results I manage to achieve are so satisfying to the ear, eye and ego that I no longer contemplate to purchase the turntable and/or tonearm I use to dream to own. I like the idea of humble gear tweaked into war machine.
dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 10:01
The tonearm, as you say - it's fairly heavy, so a 103 should be a good match in theory as well.

I'm with you on the headshell, I'm already waiting for an Ortofon LH-2000 weighing 15,5g. Looks nice too :).

I think the Denon is about 8,5g, which makes a total of 24g, 5g under the recommended max of 29g for this arm. It's backordered, so I'm a little impatient - the 103 will be here tomorrow.
If ever you can also try and add a shim weight/damp between your headshell and cartridge if you want to try with even more inertia... I couldn't find much on your tonearm so I don't know it's actual effective mass. Do you know how much exactly your counterweight weights ? Do not hesitate to play some with your VTF, adjust your VTA and set AS.
dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 10:01
I'm trying to do the woodcraft myself, so I have some 2x4" pine I'll practice with. I have a new saw, but i'm not sure about the precision. Or my skills ;). But I think a solid wood plinth improves the sonic properties of the tt.

For the bottom plate, I have a piece of butcher's block bamboo coming as a first attempt :lol: . It's 3,5 kg, so it should help inertia. I'm experimenting, and my idea is that this bamboo is fairly low in resonance, very stiff and stable.
Pine is soft to work on but likely one would want harder/denser wood for the plinth to be less prone to "bumps" and deformation. Hard dense wood in plank, like your IkeDa, is naturally prone to twist and curve. To use it as base might deform your soft pine plinth in return. The other way around would make more sense and is the way it is done.
dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 10:01
And feet, yes, very unsure about that. Spikes or rubber?
Rubber or sorbothane better must be calculated in regards to it's thickness, density and the charge it will support. Too much not good. Too little the same. The idea is to couple the turntable to it's support with dampening in between. Spikes for the turntable work with the same principle only it must rest on a support with great dampening properties.
dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 10:01
About mounting plate: ... ... I guess I'll do as you say, experiment with different materials and see what sounds best. So actually, looks is secondary to audio quality.
I guess your refereeing to your armboard. Different materials and dampening additions, if ever, will impact the sound and the whole sonic signature of your tonearm/turntable combo. For example I ended up keping my initial OEM acrylic armboard after having tried a DIY'ed dense wood one and an OEM alloy one. Earbuds and phono chain hazards.

The wood armboard muffled down my sound. I even try to laquer it hoping for some transient sonics to appear but nothing changed there. The second OEM alloy armboard proved to be too heavy for my Thorens sub-chassis suspension already coping with my converted tonearm into heavy mass. It sounded too bright for me anyway.

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 12 Jun 2019 17:11

The only data I've found on the arm so far is in the 1977 manual for the HT-840.
Here's a translation from swedish:
Type: Static balanced with suspension
Total length: 326mm
Effective length: 240mm
Overhang: 15mm
Tracking error: 1d50'
Vtf: 0-3g (0,1g scale)
Allowed pickup weight: 11-29g (including headshell)
Headshell weight: 11g
Tonearm height: 48-60mm


The counterweight is 94,5g. How to calculate effective mass is beyond me. The piece of bamboo is a glued layered and compressed laminate/composite, so I think it is super stable. I agree about pine, it's just to practice and to test my new saw :). And I have the wood. Looking for some old oak, I think that could work well.

The tonearm board yes, I read about "ringing" sound from metal boards, but as you say, it depends on the whole setup. Guess I'll start with materials I can work with, like wood, mdf or plexi. Now, my Denon has arrived ahead of time, so I'm off to the postoffice :).

tlscapital
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2019 17:53

dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 17:11
The counterweight is 94,5g. How to calculate effective mass is beyond me.
That counterweight mass indicates rather a lighter effective mass tonearm I'm afraid. Like I believed at first. But maybe you could fiddle some with little mass addition on both the headshell side and counterweight to see if your DL-103 performs better with more inertia. It was truly the case with my DL-102 and have read similar benefit on behalf of the DL-103.
dagfinn wrote:
12 Jun 2019 17:11
The piece of bamboo is a glued layered and compressed laminate/composite, so I think it is super stable. I agree about pine, it's just to practice and to test my new saw :). And I have the wood. Looking for some old oak, I think that could work well.
Wood is wood. When solid (more than MDF & other assembled wood), just with ambient humidity the fibers will swallow unevenly and induced those twists and curves unless it is pressured or locked. Even then it does "push & pull". Woodcraftman know that to prevent that as much as they can or on the other hand play using that to "bend & shape" the wood.

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 12 Jun 2019 21:55

Looking more closely at the construction and at the documentation, I found an added weight at the end of the tonearm.
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It is 6,4 grams and screws onto a pin mounted in a rubber plug inside the tonearm.

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Not in the manual. Is it done to increase effective mass?
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Got my new Denon, plays better than ever, music is back.

tlscapital
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2019 22:38

Good and enjoy ! it's indeed an extra counterweight to increase the tonearm effective mass and/or allow to play with heavier cartridge/headshell combos. Technics SL-1200 have that feature also. The anti-skate can't follow up though.

Still if I where you would, anytime later once you are used to the DL-103 sound again, fiddle with some small coins to temporary add weight on the headshell and counterweight to see if you can hear your DL-103 performing differently.

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 30 Jun 2019 12:00

...and there it is! Perhaps not the prettiest, but I did it all myself :D .

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New plinth from bamboo and a piece of pine, new baseplate from 40mm MDF, new tonearm board with correct positioning of the arm, new feet and a new linoleum/HDF/cork platform to sit on. New (temporary) headshell with 7g extra weigth on top. New path for tonearm cable to hang free through hole in the baseplate. New realestate on the right side - for record brush and stuff (also to allow for a dustcover - the original was too small for the tonearm both in the rear and on the right side.)

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All these changes makes a totally new tt, much better than it ever has been (at least without baseplate ;) ). So now I'm just listening, fine tuning, enjoying it, really :). I love hearing new nuances in instruments, new precision and separation, and the calmness in the way everything is delivered... After summer I'll chase a new headshell, the Ortofon LH-2000 is still backordered. Thanks for all the great tips and shared experiences! It's been really helpful in chosing my way.

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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by goatbreath » 04 Jul 2019 00:09

I Put a 3009 S2 on my T160 took of the Rega and Ringing Metal Armboard....
It is sounding good with a heavier headshell..
A tweaked counterweight..Crude but effective..
5 gram Antiskate weight and cheap but Cheerful AT95e with 4x7 stylus..
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sound-and-music
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by sound-and-music » 20 Aug 2019 08:08

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My TD 135 mkII with Stanton 681 EEE. The spring motor kit is Hanze (NL) while the pulley is Audio Silente (IT).

dagfinn
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Re: Pictures of your Thorens

Post by dagfinn » 20 Aug 2019 15:50

Very nice. I'm putting new pulleys on my wish list for christmas :D.

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