1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

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Hugues TR4
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1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 11 Feb 2019 11:15

Hi All,

Yes I know, this subject has been raised quite a few times. I still have a problem though on one of my 1219's (yes, I've got three :oops: ).
Tweaking the n°1, I cant get the eccentric on the locating slide #259 to make the tonearm get far enough towards the platter center to reach the record edge safely for the stylus. It's missing a couple of mm's. No problem in the outer direction. It gets a little better with antiskating set to 0.
Tried sandblasting the upper pimpel and the underside of the arm part on which it slides, to no effect.
Also checked #221 plate position, put a new lower pimpel and roughened the main lever (#207) rubbing surface.
Everything looks clean and properly lubed, the locating slide looks straight (no bending traces), the antiskating device is well adjusted… Just those 2 mm missing.
Any hint?
Thanks for your usual good suggestions!
Cheers,

Hugh.

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 11 Feb 2019 11:43

Forgot to mention that the tonearm react normally until at approx one cm of the record, then tends to sway lightly towards the outside, just missing the edge of most records. Checked my other 1219's: they work as they should...

vanakaru
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by vanakaru » 11 Feb 2019 12:29

Look at the cueing mechanism - it should be in contact with the arm all the way until the stylus hits the record. Otherwise if the arm gets free to sway then the AS will pull it towards outer rim.

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 11 Feb 2019 13:39

Thanks Vanakaru.
Checked all adjustments. They look OK. What puzzles me is that the eccentric refuses to go any further.
Issue seems to be somewhere in the locating slide… which looks absolutely fine…
Will continue investigating.

tep392
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by tep392 » 11 Feb 2019 17:15

I'm having a similar problem I haven't figured out yet. Mine moves to the correct starting location, but just as the main lever releases, the arm moves back out a few mm's, just before lowering. I'm looking forward to seeing what solution you find.

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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by DSJR » 11 Feb 2019 19:59

Is there any free play on the under-segment #181 if slightly unscrewed? I take it this piece 'rotates' with the arm as it moves laterally and it has the stud that locates with slide #259 to 'index' the beginning of the record. Slight misalignment of #181 may halt the arm slightly out and beyond any fine adjustment elsewhere...

Any help? Maybe of you can look closely at the good decks with arm locked in its rest, you may see any slight misalignment in #181 if it's 'twisted' slightly? I may be totally wrong here and apologies if I am. I appreciate the fittings are different here from the lower models, but if the slider is adjusted as far as it can go, the indexing 'stud' that locates with it to position the arm must be slightly out?

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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by mrow2 » 11 Feb 2019 23:41

I think looking closely at one of its nearby relations might help, too. It has always benefitted me, comparing one dodgy one with a properly working unit. Naturally, they should be the same version (pre-break v. post-break) but I know you already are aware of this.

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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by dualcan » 12 Feb 2019 00:49

Hi Hugh,
If the eccentric does not allow enough travel for the arm, then:
a. check that cart/stylus is placed properly on TK holder.
b. check that the arm tube is not bent sideways. This can be visually tricky as any bent on these arms happens right on the black vertical bearing traverse (with tracking force dial), and leaves the rest of the arm straight.
c. segment 181 is not off rotational alignment a bit, causing a shorter arm movement to the size lever 259 stop.
d. size lever 259 is not impeded with its movement by some impediment near the size shift plate 260 or indeed the eccentric on 259 itself.

My first guess is always a bent arm right at the traverse, and it does not need to be much of a twist either!
Regards,
k

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 12 Feb 2019 10:06

Thanks all for your interesting suggestions. Planning to spend the day investigating the different solutions and will sure come back with my findings (if any…).
This is the first 1219 I bought, with a burnt motor, spotted top plate (replaced by a new one made by one of our fellows VEers, Angel) and damaged tonearm contact plate (wiring renewed by 5 separate wires). Probably why I like it so much...
Will take some courage to go and dig one of the working ones out of the HiFi cabinets where they hide. Surely the best way to go though not the easiest.
I'll report asap.
Thanks again,
Cheers,

Hugh.

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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by dualcan » 12 Feb 2019 17:18

Hi Hugh,
Just a quick test.
Take a business card and see if you can slip it between the alu tube and the black platform/bearing traverse:
DSC00194.JPG
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If the arm is slightly bent, then the edge of the platform and alu tube is slightly open- meaning the rest of the tube is slightly bent.
With careful handling of the arm and cradling the gimbal, the arm can be brought back to the proper shape in situ.
The acid test as always is to slide a straight, longer rod into the arm in place of the C weight. Be careful not to damage wires-don't insert too deep, or better cut grind a V channel like the C.weight shaft has. The shaft can be as simple as a proper sized pencil ....
Once rod is installed, any bent in arm tube versus rod, will be visible when viewed overall.
Regards,
k

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 12 Feb 2019 19:47

Hi Klaus,
Didn't remember the tonearm automatic mechanism was so complicated!
Disassembled and reassembled the 181 and all its links. Almost managed to get it work, when suddenly I started to get issues in the pawl area. Somehow the manual start would not work anymore. Then, after many readjusting, the tonearm would not start at its normal position… Then I gave up for today as supper was ready…
Thanks for your suggestion re: checking the tonearm. Will test it tomorrow.
So kind of you to help me with this problem!
Will advise about follow-up.

Cheers,

Hugh.

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 13 Feb 2019 20:06

Hi Klaus,
KATASTROF! While tweaking, think I opened Pandora's box!
Something happened in the pawn mechanism: when moving the tonearm forward to start in manual mode, the stud underneath segment 181 passes through the pawn 255 all right, but then 146 goes back to its initial position, switching the power straight off.
Compared to one of my working unit, everything looks normal, but the arm freezes right at the end of arm rest extension and the power shuts off.
Re: bent tonearm, I can't even insert a piece of paper through the gap between arm and the black traverse. Only have a little to much play in the arm bearings, just necessary to pass the "stamp" test.
Fig 22 in the SM doesn't help much… How do I adjust the 0.3 mm between pawl and square bolt? if that is the issue?
I have used Molycote for this part and it looks well lubed.
Fig 24 adjustment looks fine.
Any idea?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
cheers,

Hugh.

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 14 Feb 2019 17:28

Relief!!
Spent the day looking again closely at all possible points of issues with the SM and the various fixes our favorite Guru Dualcan has suggested over the years and I finally got everything working flawlessly bit by bit. One of my working units helped a lot as well.
Thanks again All for your usual help and suggestions!
Cheers,

Hugh.

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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by dualcan » 14 Feb 2019 17:50

Hi Hugh,
when moving the tonearm forward to start in manual mode, the stud underneath segment 181 passes through the pawn 255 all right, but then 146 goes back to its initial position, switching the power straight off.
--->
Only have a little to much play in the arm bearings, just necessary to pass the "stamp" test.
Fig 22
Fig 21?
in the SM doesn't help much… How do I adjust the 0.3 mm between pawl and square bolt? if that is the issue?
--so there is no power latching between the pawl 255 and the segment pin.
In fig 21 (page 13/1219) you can see where the 0.3mm clearance is needed
If stud 258 was loosened, then the "square" 256 may have rotated out of alignment (no longer parallel to pawl 255).:
DSC00039.JPG
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1. To get the 0.3mm adjustment, you will need to remove the washer 257 by removing stud 258. Now you will be able to see if there is clearance by pushing the pawl onto the square (white arrow) to keep them parallel, but also remember keep the segment out of the pawl catchment area (blue arrow) for that test.
If the 0.3 is too much or insufficient, open bolt 146 and adjust the two halves of 147 until you do have 0.3. The main switch lever 147 however must be in cam's ( 251) neutral/rest position with 147 inside the cam's notch/cutout.
2. Once the clearance is set, re-tighten 146, replace the parts on stud 258 and align the square as above, prior to tightening the stud. The latching is now aligned and should work.
A key problem to remember on all the changers, is that the main switch lever may be (partially) frozen onto its stud (176), The old alvania acts like epoxy sometimes and does not allow the arm (147) free movement. This will also hinder latching. The switch arm 147 must rotate freely on its shaft because it is only pulled by the idler arm (103) spring, with only some units supplied with the extra prawn spring 168.
Compared to one of my working unit, everything looks normal, but the arm freezes right at the end of arm rest extension and the power shuts off.
I have found several pawls (255) pushed in (bowed in) under the washer 257. This results in the pawl's two ends not fitting snugly to the chassis and the segment (181) pin will not clear the "nose" of pawl 255. The result is that the arm does not move onto the rest post but pin is stuck on the nose of the pawl,- arm doesn't return as you say. The pawl must be removed and straightened.
Re: bent tonearm, I can't even insert a piece of paper through the gap between arm and the black traverse.
I have used Molycote for this part and it looks well lubed.
The sizing problem must be with the geometry I outlined - arm / segment to size rail. Use a dowel to replace the c weight to "eyeball" the arm.

I am just starting to remount a 1219 presently:
DSC00100.JPG
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DSC00101.JPG
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DSC00103.JPG
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So when I'm a bit further in I can help directly,
Fig 24 adjustment looks fine.
My (1219 manual ) Fig 24 shows the isometric drawing on page 17...
Regards,
k

Hugues TR4
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Re: 1219 tonearm missing the edge of record.

Post by Hugues TR4 » 14 Feb 2019 21:09

Thanks a lot Klaus for your detailed report!
I will keep your post for future reference, just like I found and kept an old post of yours (march 2016) I happened to dig out of my PC while desperately looking for a solution to my problem.
Now everything is back to normal and the 1219 is performing like a new one.
It is one of the first series 2 (SN 162 235), the levers were still clear metal color (iso gold) and the base of the main lever (200) still had 2 bearing balls.
Think she has had a tough life before I found her! Motor had overheated (melted rubber suspension and burnt rotor) and the top plate was badly spotted. But I managed to make her sing again.
Your Dual Service manuals and pictures are really a great help too!

Thanks again,
Cheers,

Hugh.

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