Using end wax to set anti skating?

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doctor fuse
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Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by doctor fuse » 20 Jan 2019 09:01

After 7 years of being a vinyl aficionado, I still don't feel like I quite have an understanding of how to optimally set my anti skating.
I have gone back to using the end wax on a record with lots of it.
On my Technics SL-D2, if I set the AS to match the cartridge TF (1.25g for an Empire 2000E/III), or lower, the tonearm moves towards the spindle. If I set it at about 1.8, it stays in place. Which is much higher than Technics says (AS equal to TF), or the current usual advice, to set it a bit lower, or all the way down to 50% lower than TF.
But now I am reading that this method is not accurate, and I don't understand why, if the goal is to have a tonearm that stays in place, and doesn't move one way or the other.
Is it because this method has no groove force being inflicted on the stylus?
If anyone can elucidate in a manner easily understood by layman dum dum, it would be appreciated.
Also, a compendium of preferred methods of setting AS might also be useful to me and many others.

Woodbrains
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Re: Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by Woodbrains » 20 Jan 2019 10:58

doctor fuse wrote:
20 Jan 2019 09:01
After 7 years of being a vinyl aficionado, I still don't feel like I quite have an understanding of how to optimally set my anti skating.
I have gone back to using the end wax on a record with lots of it.
On my Technics SL-D2, if I set the AS to match the cartridge TF (1.25g for an Empire 2000E/III), or lower, the tonearm moves towards the spindle. If I set it at about 1.8, it stays in place. Which is much higher than Technics says (AS equal to TF), or the current usual advice, to set it a bit lower, or all the way down to 50% lower than TF.
But now I am reading that this method is not accurate, and I don't understand why, if the goal is to have a tonearm that stays in place, and doesn't move one way or the other.
Is it because this method has no groove force being inflicted on the stylus?
If anyone can elucidate in a manner easily understood by layman dum dum, it would be appreciated.
Also, a compendium of preferred methods of setting AS might also be useful to me and many others.
Hello,

I use a blank disc, which is essentially the same method as using the deadwax. Unfortunately, this method will have many here, throwing their arms up in horror! In theory, the friction on the stylus, using a blank disk is not quite the same as the friction between the stylus and the groove. However, since there is no way of actually measuring this, and since the inward pull exerted on the stylus varies across the disc, this approximation is as good as any one else's approximation. It will certainly get you close enough, and if the sound is balanced on both channels then it is fine. If needed, a bit of a tweak one way or the other is doable anyway.

Incidentally, the friction in the groove is acting on the side of the stylus from the outer groove, but no one seems to mention that that is counteracted somewhat by friction from the inner groove. Cumulatively, the result is more or less the same as the friction acting on the tip. Until someone comes up with a measurable way of setting the bias, we have to find our own method of approximating it to a real world working solution. I don't have a test record and a oscilloscope!

Mike.

tlscapital
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Re: Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by tlscapital » 20 Jan 2019 11:44

doctor fuse wrote:
20 Jan 2019 09:01
After 7 years of being a vinyl aficionado, I still don't feel like I quite have an understanding of how to optimally set my anti skating.
I have gone back to using the end wax on a record with lots of it. ... ...But now I am reading that this method is not accurate, and I don't understand why, if the goal is to have a tonearm that stays in place, and doesn't move one way or the other.... ...Is it because this method has no groove force being inflicted on the stylus?
If anyone can elucidate in a manner easily understood by layman dum dum, it would be appreciated.
Also, a compendium of preferred methods of setting AS might also be useful to me and many others.
First understand that it is the groove modulations that induce that 'inbound' force. Hence the circonvolution given direction to the cartridge/headshell... That is given through the cantilever. Many other factor as the tonearm effective mass distribution, bearing inertia and ergonomic do come into the force at stake. But only through groove modulations.

So since the groove modulations are squeezed in the run-in groove zone wheres they are sparser toward the run-out groove, the 'bias' force is stronger at the beginning of the record. The anti-skate should be set "stronger" in the run-in zone and set-outbound to counter that inbound "skating" force to reach "even"-er stylus pressure on both walls of the groove.

Once you really got hold of that is what is at stake with the bias force and how "anti-skate" devices are expected to work, you'll realize in "horror" that it is impossible to have a "perfect" anti-skate device since not only it can't be always precisely measured and set. Plus it's evolutive through the record play advancement, diminishing through the read...

Now those "dynamic" anti-skate devices with springs and dials are evidently "fantasy" as numbers like on counterweight when verified with a gauge only indicate "ball park numbers". But if one needs those to feel in the "safety zone", be it. But it's only that and very likely need after re-adjustments to be on "safer" adjustment setting to counter the bias force.

My SME tonearm has that fishing string hanging counter weight "anti-skate" that I got to finally adjust better by eye and hands. Understanding that with it's hanger set at 90° to the tonearm "axial" bearing, it's force is at maximum; ideally there at the start of the record, mines of which most are 7". That is how I first set my "ball park" anti-skate setting.

Then I check those frequencies pick-up diagrams like when I digitalize my records on such program like 'Audacity'. There with better mastered MONO records, I can view how the stylus pressure in the groove walls operate. If ever I can correct/adjust some my "anti-skate" counter weight angle and/or force on the tonearm bearing scaled bar string hanger.
Woodbrains wrote:
20 Jan 2019 10:58
I use a blank disc, which is essentially the same method as using the deadwax. Unfortunately, this method will have many here, throwing their arms up in horror! In theory, the friction on the stylus, using a blank disk is not quite the same as the friction between the stylus and the groove. However, since there is no way of actually measuring this, and since the inward pull exerted on the stylus varies across the disc, this approximation is as good as any one else's approximation. It will certainly get you close enough, and if the sound is balanced on both channels then it is fine. If needed, a bit of a tweak one way or the other is doable anyway.

Incidentally, the friction in the groove is acting on the side of the stylus from the outer groove, but no one seems to mention that that is counteracted somewhat by friction from the inner groove. Cumulatively, the result is more or less the same as the friction acting on the tip. Until someone comes up with a measurable way of setting the bias, we have to find our own method of approximating it to a real world working solution. I don't have a test record and a oscilloscope!
In the wrong with my beliefs I was at first. After much reading on the matter and verifications, I got to "correct" my "anti-skate" through my tweaks. Although I had to give up my beliefs and accepts new scientific facts to be able to tweak right my bias weight. Now it's all so simpler for me to swiftly set it first "approximatively" on my tonearm before adjustment.

abril
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Re: Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by abril » 20 Jan 2019 12:22

Perhaps for your edification this article should be read.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17293

HAMISH119
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Re: Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by HAMISH119 » 20 Jan 2019 16:33

doctor fuse wrote:
20 Jan 2019 09:01
...If anyone can elucidate in a manner easily understood by layman dum dum, it would be appreciated.
Woodbrains wrote:
20 Jan 2019 10:58
...Until someone comes up with a measurable way of setting the bias, we have to find our own method of approximating it to a real world working solution. I don't have a test record and a oscilloscope!
One doesn't require an expensive 'scope to set tracking weight and anti-skate. But One absolutely requires a test record!

With a test record, One can put electronic scales, youtube videos, guesswork and OCD to one side, and simply use the measuring instruments on One's head (ears) in conjunction with the record, and set tracking weight and anti-skate accordingly. They beat pseudo science all to Hell!

Many years ago, when I was young enough to know everything, I thought that I had my 'technique' (tracking force and anti-skate) down..., but as soon as I listened to a test record, I realised that my 'technique' required improvement. Mistracking was immediately apparent on the more heavily-modulated tracks.
That was a startling revelation! And the end of tracking @ 1.5g - Hello 2.5g!

Using both ears and a test record, I had my SME 3009 and Goldring 1020 combination (on the mighty FONS CQ30) tracking The Himalayas without issue - heavily-modulated records no longer suffered from mistracking. Prior to using the test record, they could only track Ben Nevis before mistracking set in.

Forget electronic scales, youtube videos, guesswork etc. Buy a test record and use it, and your ears, to set tracking weight and anti-skate!
Don't be afraid to experiment with the settings. The manufacturers instructions are for guidance only.

Good Luck!

Woodbrains
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Re: Using end wax to set anti skating?

Post by Woodbrains » 20 Jan 2019 16:46

Hello,

I think I'm gathering that you think I should get a test record

OK I'm a curious person, I will.

Mike.

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