621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

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raaawkstar
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621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 09 Jan 2019 02:20

The previous thread that I searched and sought help has been closed, I wanted to know if anyone had any photos of what the "guts" looked like put together before it was sealed? I am having the same issues as the members in the old threads. I got the 621 yesterday, purchased from fleabay! lol Cosmetically looking amazing, has a few minor issues. Resolving the first now and inquiring about next on the "honey do" list! lol Interject comedy to avoid crying! :( Arrived with a sagging counterweight/anti-resonator, I took mine apart and I can't tell what goes where. I have straightened the copper looking springy piece where it looks like an upside down "L". when holding the shaft upright. That is if that is the correct angle? All I can find are photos of the parts unassembled, I wished there was one of the floating piece attached to the shaft before it was put back through the black anti-resonator end and clip reattached. I figured since some have successful tacked this problem I'd check in with you, the most excellent and knowledgable beings before I pull more of my hair out! LOL Even a crudely drawn diagram of what goes where and how and what angle the copper springy piece should be. If I can get it all reattached, I'm going to take photos every step of the way and share them to the forums I've been looking for help on! Thanks! I have a few other issues to repair on my 621 but this is the most stressful! Thanks in advance! I've only been here 2 days and already I've been overwhelmed with kindness and support, Tinkaroo, you're the man! =D> =D> =D> =D>

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Tinkaroo » 09 Jan 2019 10:25

My best advice on trying to repair one of these counterweights is to not try to do so. They are very difficult to reassemble, and even if successfully reassembled it won't be like new. Best to look for a working replacement from a site such as the auction site or organ donor.

Here is one thread where we discussed it. but there are others. I will also add a couple of photos, but someone else might have a cutaway photo they could add. There may be a cutaway view shown on an ad for the 721 or perhaps the 75th anniversary brochure.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=77742&p=632100&hil ... ir#p632100
Dual 604 anti-resonator parts.JPG
(37.15 KiB) Downloaded 106 times
This is the same as the one used on the 621.
Dual 2X Anti-Resonator.JPG
(178.67 KiB) Downloaded 110 times
This is a better version as used on the 721,704 and 1246.
Dual Anti Resonator with Spacer 2.JPG
(79.91 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
This is the spacer (in red) they would have been shipped with to protect it from damage from jarring around.

If you download the following catalog, there is a nice cutaway drawing of the 721 counterweight on page 5. I wouldn't take one of these apart plus they were factory tuned, but the drawing shows you how complex it is. Assembling at the factory with proper jigs and equipment is one thing, but trying to field fix one would not be recommended.
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dua ... bles.shtml

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by dualcan » 09 Jan 2019 17:36

Hi,
I don't think they are the same C weight Tink. Have a look at the part numbers- I don't remember at the moment. I also don't have exploded views of this one, unfortunately.
Regards,
k

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 09 Jan 2019 17:57

Thanks, per normal you are first to respond with great tips and advice! I think it can be salvaged, might not ever be perfect but it's only 4 pieces that go inside this thing. I've read on other forums where success was achieved by taking apart and straightening out the copper spring (for lack of a better word). I've yet to hear back, it was an old thread but still active. I have mine laid out just like in the first photo you shared, I wished I knew the importance of the yellow circle? This piece with the yellow circle was in this position when I took the end off, just bent to the side a tad...I got it more upright. I've checked with donor parts, no luck! Nothing on fleabay USA at this time found one on Euro eBay but seller list he won't ship to USA. I may contact him and plead for I really want to get this up and running, either to keep and use or just get this jinxed thing out of my home and try and recoup my expenses! I really want to replace the cartridge but as I suspected the VR15 III DU is made exclusively for the DUAL 1978/9 621 and it's molded to the TK24 sleeve so I will need to spend about $40 US on a new sleeve. The stylus looks good on the VN35MR but I don't want to use a vintage stylus on new 180 gram vinyl...maybe, I can offer it on eBay to someone else? I doubt it will sell quickly but there's not another one on eBay for sale. There's one made for a LM and one molded on a BIC headshell? Thanks for all your replies and assistance. I guess I'll buy a new belt and cartridge for a 506 I picked up a while back and keep looking out for a compatible counterweight for the 621! BTW, I like the 721 weight much better although the shaft looks MUCH shorter? Is it or is it just the depth perception on said photo? Lastly, I can use one from a Dual 1246, 721, 704 as well...granted the cartridge and tone arm, and weight balances (floats). Good to know!

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 09 Jan 2019 19:23

Thanks, Dualcan and Tink! I found this one in Germany? I'm not sure, I can't get the page to translate properly and the seller states no shipping to USA? :( https://www.ebay.de/itm/DUAL-2x-Anti-RE ... %7Ciid%3A1

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Tinkaroo » 09 Jan 2019 22:06

I think someone marked the yellow circle to indicate where that grey foam piece attaches, but perhaps Klaus can confirm this?

Unfortunately my original did not take kindly to bending back and developed a break but perhaps you will have better luck.

I don't think the 721 weight you showed ships to the US but if you are patient and check periodically one will turn up from a US seller. That is what I did, and in the meantime you can use what you have.

I have one of the V15 III in the Dual headshell and like it personally. If you sold it you wouldn't get as much as a normal 1/2" mount type but someone who owns a Dual would want it in the Dual Headshell, so sell it as a complete assembly. It is a very good cartridge if you give it half a chance.
It's a lot better than much of what you can buy now unless you want to spend several hundred dollars on anew one. This used to come on the 721 too, and my 621 came with an Ortofon VMS 15 type cartridge on it when I got it. My 604 bought new in 1978 originally came with a Shure M95ED if my memory serves me well. The type III was the top of the line till it was replaced by the type IV.

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 10 Jan 2019 20:24

No, the seller won't ship to USA. I posted thinking maybe, it would be helpful for someone in Europe, Germany, etc. that is also looking. I got it back together, I too first thought maybe that's where the foam went but it keeps coming off, I ended up just laying it in the empty groove. It's not as sagging as it was but far from perfect but should work as a "counterweight" and not so much as a "2x anti resonator". As for the VR15 III DU cartridge, I have no choice but to keep it as a complete for the sleeve is made to the cartridge. The dealbreaker for me is I have no idea the condition of the stylus (I need to get some old, test LP's to rest the condition of diamond) and they don't make replacements anymore, an aftermarket one from JICO is $100? It's a replacement for the VN35E, mine is the VN35MR...probably not much of a difference. I haven't been able to find out anything about what type of stylus the VN35MR was. When I purchased said until I wasn't familiar with what a VR 15 III was and how popular a cartridge is was in the 70's so I had planned to always replace it with a newer one Pearl, Nagaoka, or Ortofon? Being the seller couldn't tell me much about it's history I assumed a new cartridge was a priority. Is JICO a good choice? https://www.ebay.com/itm/JICO-ELLIPTICA ... rk:39:pf:0 I also found this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-St ... :rk:3:pf:0 and this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shure-VN35 ... rk:37:pf:0 the last two, of course, aren't listed as "JICO" but are listed as "Japan" made and look the same with the "special tracking" badging? Thanks again for all your suggestions and quick replies, I really do appreciate it and consider everything you guy's suggest!

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Timfromfmass » 10 Jan 2019 23:20

Does the sagging counterweight affect its function? Mine does the same thing and I was still able to balance the tone arm and used a scale to measure the VTF

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by dualcan » 10 Jan 2019 23:27

As long as it is not touching the frame meaning it is suspended, the resonator will still filter out harmonics.
Regards,
k

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 10 Jan 2019 23:34

Timfromfmass wrote:
10 Jan 2019 23:20
Does the sagging counterweight affect its function? Mine does the same thing and I was still able to balance the tone arm and used a scale to measure the VTF
I'm hoping so, I haven't tried yet, I still have it torn apart cleaning it and lubing, soldering, etc. I had to walk away from it and research all these things before moving ahead! I have the weight somewhat suspended, I think the tonearm should balance fine but the search for a replacement will continue as long as this table is in my possession! :) And I have to order a scale to check the VTF, that's on my things to do list as well! LOL

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Timfromfmass » 10 Jan 2019 23:48

I took the thing apart not knowing anything about it in all honesty and it was a bear to put back together. Still sags. Still works as far as I can tell haha.

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Tinkaroo » 11 Jan 2019 13:13

If the counterweight "wobbly bit" is laying dead against the bottom rather than springing up and down then the anti resonance isn't going to work but it can still be used as a counterweight in the interim.

As far as replacement styli go, a genuine Jico will be good, and the Jico SAS will be the best outside of an original which are difficult to find at a fair price. You may want to also consider the "vivid line" stylus from LP Gear. For older and thrift store records, you might be happy with a Tonar or other budget priced stylus which will sound pretty good but not as good as the Jico or original.

You pretty much get what you pay for, for the most part. When the V15 III and IV were new, a genuine replacement stylus from Shure was expensive, often close to the cost of a new one with stylus.
If you adjusted that for inflation then you would be paying hundreds of dollars for that stylus, so the cost of the SAS is not that extreme in comparison. I've got an SAS for my V15 Type III and it was worth it. You may want to try a cheaper stylus and see if you like it or not, and if you think its worth it you can upgrade later.

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 13 Jan 2019 00:16

I mostly have new 180 gram LP's, hence the reason I don't wish to run a 40-year-old stylus I don't know the history of. I think it will be cheaper for ME to buy a new TK24 sleeve and get the Nagaoka MP100, that is if I can get her working as it should than spend all that $$$ on a JICO for the VR15 III DU! The JICO stylus for the VR15 III DU cost about same as the Nagaoka cartridge/stylus combo. I've read GREAT reviews and all parts will be new, for all I know the VR15 III DU could be dead. I made a "pimple" today, that seems to do what it's supposed to do., it may be too long hard to tell until I connect everything. Realized I have the rubber and bushings for where the screws mount to the power supply box to the plate so all I need to do is find some screws that work. I took off the lid of the "black box" and inside the red wire plug that goes into the board had also broken so I'm going to try to solder directly onto the "prong" coming off the board and attach longer wires (for now) so there won't be as much stress on the red and grey wires running on the main board while I have the plate up and working on it. The only thing it does now with these two wires unattached is the strobe comes on. The fuse and everything inside the "black box" looks good, I don't see any cracks. The counterweight is floating but not as it should, I will continue the search IF the unit responds more after I get these wires temporarily soldered. I figured it would still balance the tonearm and that's really all I was looking for in trying to get it back together after reading Dualcan's comment that they were tuned at the factory and a human would never get it as it were, paraphrasing of course! :) It's so clean both under the plate and outside, probably won't be any issues beyond the "pimple" replacement, cleaning, and a 2x anti-resonator replacement if some jackbutt hadn't removed the screws to the "black box" which caused damage to the red and grey wires. I really wished I had those two screws on hand, UGH! Oh, while I'm here I should ask you what's good to clean the 4 prongs (contacts) on the cartridge where it plugs into the headshell. The two on the outside look shiny, the inner two looks dull and dark grey! Thanks, bud!

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by Tinkaroo » 14 Jan 2019 13:20

There is only one way to repair these vintage Duals and that is the proper way. It really doesn't pay to rube Goldberg a pimpel, and using the right nuts and bolts to secure the power supply/transformer is the only acceptable way. If your turntable develops issues with the auto functions, or can't be adjusted properly then the "bodged" pimple is the likely culprit.

Besides the pins on the headshell, you should also clean the contact strips that they mate up with at the tonearm. An edge of a pencil eraser rubbed across them is a simple and easy way to clean them and help prevent the hum such corrosion leads to.

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Re: 621 2X Anti-Resonator help?!?!

Post by raaawkstar » 14 Jan 2019 20:56

Well, being an OEM pimpel isn't possible to acquire it's either buy a manmade one from someone here via their eBay account or make my own. I choose to make my own, without sounding like a jerk it is my turntable. I do understand where you are coming from. All other repairs are being done correctly, not sure if "acceptable" matters to me. I was describing wiring it with longer wires to TEST the unit BEFORE spending more money on parts that would be unnecessary if the power supply was bad. The likelihood of ever finding the correct size and OEM connection/plug that was on the end of the red wire running out the "black box" on into the mainboard would be next to impossible so acceptable or not I'll repair it as best I can. I "rube Goldberg" my pimple to troubleshoot/test the unit, I would like to see what the issues are before spending more unnecessary monies and time is of the essence, I had the pen cartridge here, fuel line, speaker wire insulation...first thing I tried (pen) worked for my test. I never stated it was a perm fix. The service instructions that come with the pimpel are probably worth the $9 alone! I appreciate all your help and suggestions, the more I learn here the more I get familiar with the terminology and the service manual. I fixed the repeat function for I found this little thin sliver of metal inside the pilth when I first opened the unit up the day it arrived and knew it had to be important so I put it up somewhere safe. Well, I got to looking at the repeat levers on the inside and noticed it was nothing there to cause it to trip the lever so I had an AHA moment and sure enough, when I looked at the service manual I saw a thin piece of metal between a plastic (fish-shaped) piece and a metal cut out. I retrieved the piece recovered and BAZINGA it now clicks into and out of repeat and single play! :) I also found the size screws and bolts I need by referencing the service manual and googling M4 10 which is M4 is thread size and 10 is the length. I decided to wait on solder work until I get those screws and get the power supply mounted on the plate as to not put any more stress on those delicate wires. I'm still perplexed why someone removed those two screws and didn't place them back? I'm sure that was what broke the repeat function, the power supply being lose during shipment. It feels good doing the work myself, figuring things out, being patient, reading, and more reading. I can't think you enough, I hope you continue to guide me. I'm sure I'll be asking many more questions during this repair process!

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