Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

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Eggwin
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Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Eggwin » 12 Jan 2019 00:28

Says it all in the title.. recently built a custom Turntable with a Michael Lim acrylic skeleton plinth, bronze bearing hub, top and bottom braces, VTA adjuster, adjustable feet, acrylic platform, motor isolation base with rega 24v motor, groovetracer subplatter and delrin platter with dual pulley.

It was built originally from a donor 1990s Planar 3 but a few months ago the last piece of the rega was replaced - the RB300 tonearm was retired for an amazing Origin Live Silver Mk3a.

I've currently got an Ortofon 2M Bronze and although I'm very happy with it I've heard so many good things about changing to a Moving Coil cart...

I'd love to hear your views on what you feel may be a good match for this arm... also I currently have the latest Rega Brio Amp which has its own MM phono stage which reviewers have stated is as good as rega stand alone MM Phono. Obviously changing to a MC cart would mean a new stage... again im open to ideas.

Budget wise I'm happy in the low to mid hundreds for each peice.... just not the thousands lol.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Legrace
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Legrace » 12 Jan 2019 12:10

Plug and play options for your Brio are Hana EH or Dynavector 10x5 HOMC's. If able to stretch a bit Hana SH has garnered great reviews. Moving the other way Denon DL110 offers good value.

For LOMC Rega's Ania and of course the low output versions of the Hanas. Here plan on spending as much again on a decent SUT or external phono stage.

BTW nice job on the deck, looks sharp.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 12 Jan 2019 12:24

Why do you think a MC is a step up from the Bronze?
Do you think MC is better than MM or MI?
The low end red and blue are not nice IMO but the Bronze is a nice cart and there is so much BS regards MC. MC is not lower moving mass not compared to modern MM and MI so why go MC? I have about 20 MC currently and a load of MM and MI too dont look at the generator type (mags push MC as a new tip means a new cart) but look at the big picture. Some of my MC's are around 2k but not my fav carts, my fav is my Decca super gold (MI) and second is my Grado statement reference. I have a Stanton 881 MM which is honestly stunning too but needs a light arm and lots more which are worth a mention but too many. My MC's sound great but retips are a pain in the butt and low output for some will mean delicate signal is damaged so gains are lost if there really are gains. Often the jump to MC for an upgrade is not only a headache but a step back in real terms so do a bit of reading and thinking. You have a very good cart limiting to MC very easily you will make a step backwards IMO.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Rosewood » 12 Jan 2019 16:42

I agree with Chris: It's not because a cart is a MC that it will outperform any MM.
I have (and have owned) several carts and some MM's or even MI's outperform some MC's.
Getting a 2m Black stylus may be a more cost effective upgrade (Bronze and Black share the same generator).
R.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Cloudbase » 12 Jan 2019 19:38

Id second the Dynavector 10x5 I used one in an Origin Live Onyx for 3 years and its now sat in an Origin Live Illustrious arm.
Sounds pretty damn fine to my ears, well worth considering and its High o/p so will run in a standard MM phono stage.
.... Alan

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 12 Jan 2019 22:06

Cloudbase wrote:
12 Jan 2019 19:38
Id second the Dynavector 10x5 I used one in an Origin Live Onyx for 3 years and its now sat in an Origin Live Illustrious arm.
Sounds pretty damn fine to my ears, well worth considering and its High o/p so will run in a standard MM phono stage.
.... Alan
'Thing is high output MC has high moving mass and low output MC no longer has that such a low moving mass compared with modern MM and MI which have actually lower in this respect. A MC is a MM in reverse with the disadvantage of no user stylus change, but modern magnets mean MM can be very low MM and as I said MI is lower MM than MC anyway. MC there is a lot of choice as the industry has pushed them for years so some low output MC are very worthy, but that is not saying either that equal or better cant be achieved with MM and MI as it can. I just dont see the point in investing in a high output MC, I have a couple in my collection of carts and MM and MI can do better with less hassle.
The OP has a 2m bronze which is a really nice cart it is a huge sidestep going for an entry level high output MC maybe even a step backwards.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 12 Jan 2019 22:21

Actually the 2m bronze is 10 dollars more expensive than the Dynavector 10x lp gear sells the 2m bronze for 389 dollars the Dynavector 10x is 379 dollars so even money wise a clear side step.
Chris

Cloudbase
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Cloudbase » 12 Jan 2019 23:00

"Actually the 2m bronze is 10 dollars more expensive than the Dynavector 10x lp gear sells the 2m bronze for 389 dollars the Dynavector 10x is 379 dollars so even money wise a clear side step."
Chris

Well that's the great thing about this interest or hobby of ours call it what you will, its all about different ways to get a great result and after having quite a few carts/arms/ decks over the years mine right now sounds fabulous to my ears.

There is no right/wrong way, just options, some work some don't.

.. Alan

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by 2002afan » 13 Jan 2019 04:41

Eggwin, A real beauty. =D> I second the DL-110.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 06:57

Cloudbase wrote:
12 Jan 2019 23:00
"Actually the 2m bronze is 10 dollars more expensive than the Dynavector 10x lp gear sells the 2m bronze for 389 dollars the Dynavector 10x is 379 dollars so even money wise a clear side step."
Chris

Well that's the great thing about this interest or hobby of ours call it what you will, its all about different ways to get a great result and after having quite a few carts/arms/ decks over the years mine right now sounds fabulous to my ears.

There is no right/wrong way, just options, some work some don't.

.. Alan
Nothing really wrong with the Dynavector 10x just dont think it is an upgrade from the 2m bronze more of a side step with the loss of user changeable stylus. I am sure your sounds amazing I have actually recommended the 10x before, but trying to give the Op an upgrade not a different flavour of the same thing.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 13 Jan 2019 09:21

Eggwin wrote:
12 Jan 2019 00:28
Says it all in the title.. recently built a custom Turntable with a Michael Lim acrylic skeleton plinth, bronze bearing hub, top and bottom braces, VTA adjuster, adjustable feet, acrylic platform, motor isolation base with rega 24v motor, groovetracer subplatter and delrin platter with dual pulley.

It was built originally from a donor 1990s Planar 3 but a few months ago the last piece of the rega was replaced - the RB300 tonearm was retired for an amazing Origin Live Silver Mk3a.

I've currently got an Ortofon 2M Bronze and although I'm very happy with it I've heard so many good things about changing to a Moving Coil cart...

I'd love to hear your views on what you feel may be a good match for this arm... also I currently have the latest Rega Brio Amp which has its own MM phono stage which reviewers have stated is as good as rega stand alone MM Phono. Obviously changing to a MC cart would mean a new stage... again im open to ideas.

Budget wise I'm happy in the low to mid hundreds for each peice.... just not the thousands lol.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
If you are just toe dipping then audition a HANA EH at a local supplier (You wont need to change your phono stage if you decide to buy....)

For a lot more, the HANA SH is a better comparison to the 2M Bronze spec wise....(Fine Line vs Shiabata and both highish output)....again, no need to change your phono stage....

If you want to stick your head in the rabbit hole with LOMC....then try the HANA HL/SL, you will need to change the phono stage or get a SUT or both....from here on in it just gets ridiculously expensive....

[HiViNyws guy on youtube recons the EL is better than the 2M bronze, but not as good as an MP-200 [?] ... but then he doesnt rate Ortofon at all...Personally ,I wouldnt say its "better" than the 2M bronze, but its voiced differently. I think the 2M series in general sounds leaner/closer to the digital[1] than many other carts, ie lacks the "warmth" that many want from analogue, which some would say is a compliment and others an insult...]


For what its worth amongst other things, I have a 2M Bronze on a Circa 1990's Rega....and a HANA SL on a Clear Audio concept going through a pair of Cinnemag SUT's both into an EAR Clone which I am tricking out.... but then that's the itch that I want to scratch.....[waving a soldering iron around ]



[1] This is not meant to be a Digital / Analogue debate.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 10:13

countingteeth wrote:
13 Jan 2019 09:21
Eggwin wrote:
12 Jan 2019 00:28
Says it all in the title.. recently built a custom Turntable with a Michael Lim acrylic skeleton plinth, bronze bearing hub, top and bottom braces, VTA adjuster, adjustable feet, acrylic platform, motor isolation base with rega 24v motor, groovetracer subplatter and delrin platter with dual pulley.

It was built originally from a donor 1990s Planar 3 but a few months ago the last piece of the rega was replaced - the RB300 tonearm was retired for an amazing Origin Live Silver Mk3a.

I've currently got an Ortofon 2M Bronze and although I'm very happy with it I've heard so many good things about changing to a Moving Coil cart...

I'd love to hear your views on what you feel may be a good match for this arm... also I currently have the latest Rega Brio Amp which has its own MM phono stage which reviewers have stated is as good as rega stand alone MM Phono. Obviously changing to a MC cart would mean a new stage... again im open to ideas.

Budget wise I'm happy in the low to mid hundreds for each peice.... just not the thousands lol.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
If you are just toe dipping then audition a HANA EH at a local supplier (You wont need to change your phono stage if you decide to buy....)

For a lot more, the HANA SH is a better comparison to the 2M Bronze spec wise....(Fine Line vs Shiabata and both highish output)....again, no need to change your phono stage....

If you want to stick your head in the rabbit hole with LOMC....then try the HANA HL/SL, you will need to change the phono stage or get a SUT or both....from here on in it just gets ridiculously expensive....

[HiViNyws guy on youtube recons the EL is better than the 2M bronze, but not as good as an MP-200 [?] ... but then he doesnt rate Ortofon at all...Personally ,I wouldnt say its "better" than the 2M bronze, but its voiced differently. I think the 2M series in general sounds leaner/closer to the digital[1] than many other carts, ie lacks the "warmth" that many want from analogue, which some would say is a compliment and others an insult...]


For what its worth amongst other things, I have a 2M Bronze on a Circa 1990's Rega....and a HANA SL on a Clear Audio concept going through a pair of Cinnemag SUT's both into an EAR Clone which I am tricking out.... but then that's the itch that I want to scratch.....[waving a soldering iron around ]



[1] This is not meant to be a Digital / Analogue debate.
Shibata is not the best profile much rather have a line contact. Shibata is an old profile and wears quickly, misunderstood to today, line contact and ML is better regardless of prices charged and position in range.
I have an MP-500 re last post and IMO I would have this over any of the MC mentioned, I actually prefer the Grado gold 2 and it must be the 2, but that said the MP-500 is more detailed and probably technically the best cart but the Grado is wider which I like, also dont know how Grado go on your turntable so Nag is still a serious recommendation to consider as small isses aside it is an amazing cart way better than a bottom feeder MC ie cheap high output.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by raphaelmabo » 13 Jan 2019 10:16

An MC cart can be made with tighter tolerances since the stylus is not replaceable. This is an advantage for MC when it comes to sound quality, but a disadvantage in terms of economy and upgrade options. Now, I have owned both MM and MC carts and in the entry level to mid-market, it's more about that different cartridge models has different foes and virtues than MM and MC being different. But in the higher-end market, there's only MC. I don't know any MM cartridge in the high-end, the most expensive MM's are in the upper midmarket. It's more difficult to make a MC, it's a more expensive construction so it needs skill and knowledge. Sometimes the prime is worth it, and sometimes it's not. It's more about specific models than MM/MC.

I have the Benz Micro MC Silver, because I enjoy the sound. Not because it is a MC. :) I wanted to try it because I've read so many good reviews on Benz, and I like the idea of a Swiss cartridge on a Swiss-tonearm. :) I'm very happy with the result, and it has a good price.

I have owned both MM and MC's in the past, even an MI (Goldring, made by Nagaoka) but I didn't liked that one (not because it was a MI, but because that specific model was too forward sounding and never settled down). I seek the best "bang for my buck", and this could be MC, MM, MI or whatever...

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 10:47

raphaelmabo wrote:
13 Jan 2019 10:16
An MC cart can be made with tighter tolerances since the stylus is not replaceable. This is an advantage for MC when it comes to sound quality, but a disadvantage in terms of economy and upgrade options. Now, I have owned both MM and MC carts and in the entry level to mid-market, it's more about that different cartridge models has different foes and virtues than MM and MC being different. But in the higher-end market, there's only MC. I don't know any MM cartridge in the high-end, the most expensive MM's are in the upper midmarket. It's more difficult to make a MC, it's a more expensive construction so it needs skill and knowledge. Sometimes the prime is worth it, and sometimes it's not. It's more about specific models than MM/MC.

I have the Benz Micro MC Silver, because I enjoy the sound. Not because it is a MC. :) I wanted to try it because I've read so many good reviews on Benz, and I like the idea of a Swiss cartridge on a Swiss-tonearm. :) I'm very happy with the result, and it has a good price.

I have owned both MM and MC's in the past, even an MI (Goldring, made by Nagaoka) but I didn't liked that one (not because it was a MI, but because that specific model was too forward sounding and never settled down). I seek the best "bang for my buck", and this could be MC, MM, MI or whatever...
ot truem look at MI Grado the top end cost way way more than MC, then Decca same again and amazing perfotmance, Clearaudio, 2M black Soundsmith list goes on and on MC is not the only option and non replaceable stylus has nothing to do with quality of replay just not true.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by raphaelmabo » 13 Jan 2019 11:37

cafe latte wrote:
13 Jan 2019 10:47
ot truem look at MI Grado the top end cost way way more than MC, then Decca same again and amazing perfotmance, Clearaudio, 2M black Soundsmith list goes on and on MC is not the only option and non replaceable stylus has nothing to do with quality of replay just not true.
Chris
MI is technically not the same as MM. Soundsmith does not make MM, they make MI or, in their own words, "fixed coil" without replaceable stylus (there are sonical reasons for this). 2M Black may be high-end MM but in absolute terms it is upper mid-market. Clearaudio Maestro V2 is regarded by some as "the worlds best MM pickup" but it's still not high-end in absolute terms, even if it is high-end in MM. It is still upper mid-market. It cost around 1 000 euro. Now, when I talk about high-end cartridges, I talk about over 3-4 000 euros. For example the Sumiko Palo Santos MC for over 4 000 euros or the Zyx Ultimate Diamond för over 12 000 euros. This is the high-end that I'm talking about.


It is true that London Decca has cartridges in this class, but they don't call them MM designs. They say they are neither MM nor MC and they don't have a cantilever. They are special designs, and special designs can be quite expensive. So, London Decca Reference cartridge (around 3 - 3 500 euro) is not technically a MM, even if it is a high output cartridge.

Regarding this about that non-replaceable stylus has nothing to do with the sound, Grado themselves has non-replaceable styluses for their more expensive models - because they believe they sound better, having lower tolerances. It is their entry level Prestige series that has replaceable stylus, but not higher up the line. Their Reference and Statement seriess does not offer replaceable stylus. And Soundsmith, another MI design, does not have it. They believe they can make the body with lower resonances and tighter tolerances when there is no replaceable part, and as thus leading to better sound quality.

In the 70's, it existed MC cartridges with replaceable styluses - it can be done. But it was abandoned. A replaceable stylus is a compromise, even if they are getting better and better.

So I stand with that there are no high-end MM cartridges, and with MM I mean MM designs. The high-end MM's are all in the upper mid-market.

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