The X Files (merged cable topic)

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Chuck Glider
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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 10 Jan 2019 20:29

Well, I shan't ever post a review on this forum again, given what happened in this thread.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 11 Jan 2019 01:20

Chuck Glider wrote:
10 Jan 2019 07:49
Chris you have misunderstood. Both papers were first published in scientific peer reviewed journals before being edited for publication in hifi magazines. Each article has a profile of the writer (Prof Greiner and Fred Davis) You can find the journal references and even copies of the original papers online.

And btw, we all agree including the writers that you do not need expensive cable, and that sufficient thickness of conductor is important.

My personal position is that explained by Greiner and Davis. I've noted that the cables I listened to at the start of my part of this thread are both thinner than 12 awg. So I've bought some cheap 12 awg and will try it out.
It was the blind test by sound and vision that I was questioning validity of not the papers. This whole massive epic thread is divided into two halves, those who understand electricity and conductors and those who think there is some unknown magic going on in the wires, and that there is something only golden eared audiophiles can pick up differences that you cant measure or that nobody has yet discovered. The reality is wires and the principals of electricity are very well understood and have been understood for a very long time.Thing is the measuring equipment too is way better than our ears, we as humans can only determine 20dB of stereo separation for example and we can measure well over 100dB. It is also interesting humans have terrible audio recall. In tests when different sounds are played and then a gap of a few seconds is left the participants normally choose the wrong sound when replayed. Even more musical tests with things different are not noticed when there is a 30 second gap. This is quite interesting when most speaker cable takes not seconds but minutes to change and if the shiny new expensive stuff is really expensive you WANT it to sound better so it is will which is perception bias.
Wire is err wire guys :D
Chris

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 11 Jan 2019 01:23

Chuck Glider wrote:
10 Jan 2019 20:29
Well, I shan't ever post a review on this forum again, given what happened in this thread.
Why not! a side step and a giggle is good for the soul no matter what topic especially ones that can get a bit seious :D
Wonder if the cable cooker does cookies yum yum :lol:
Chris

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Re: Bright speaker cable

Post by cats squirrel » 11 Jan 2019 19:31

aardvarkash10 wrote:
15 Nov 2018 20:46
cats squirrel wrote:
15 Nov 2018 13:01
But it is not just a wire (or cable). It is a wire/cable that connects an amplifier to a loudspeaker. All must be included.. There is at least one (respected?) amplifier where the wrong wire/cable leads to instability. 'Just a wire'?

For those who cannot hear a difference, or will never accept that there can be a difference, please accept that there are others that can hear a difference, or at least think that they can, and are happy. :D
Its wire. If an amplifier is so unstable that negligible capacitance and a minute resistance affects its operation, that speaks volumes about the poor design of the amp, not the physical properties of the wire.

Many people PERCEIVE a difference. or, as you say, think they can hear a difference - and that’s fine. All power to them I say if they derive enjoyment from it. But they need to understand that their perception has the same evidence base as those who perceive spirits and claim they can hear messages from the dead ie none whatsoever.
well, I have heard a difference, and I am the most un-spiritual person on God's earth...!

I am very surprised (well, not really!) at people's reactions to others of different opinions. Guys, people have different opinions, doesn't make them any different to you, except their opinions. So lets have respect, and a realisation that (in general) it is a free world, where civilised people can have different opinions without prejudice from others. Ta.

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Re: Bright speaker cable

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Jan 2019 21:09

cats squirrel wrote:
11 Jan 2019 19:31
aardvarkash10 wrote:
15 Nov 2018 20:46
cats squirrel wrote:
15 Nov 2018 13:01
But it is not just a wire (or cable). It is a wire/cable that connects an amplifier to a loudspeaker. All must be included.. There is at least one (respected?) amplifier where the wrong wire/cable leads to instability. 'Just a wire'?

For those who cannot hear a difference, or will never accept that there can be a difference, please accept that there are others that can hear a difference, or at least think that they can, and are happy. :D
Its wire. If an amplifier is so unstable that negligible capacitance and a minute resistance affects its operation, that speaks volumes about the poor design of the amp, not the physical properties of the wire.

Many people PERCEIVE a difference. or, as you say, think they can hear a difference - and that’s fine. All power to them I say if they derive enjoyment from it. But they need to understand that their perception has the same evidence base as those who perceive spirits and claim they can hear messages from the dead ie none whatsoever.
well, I have heard a difference, and I am the most un-spiritual person on God's earth...!

I am very surprised (well, not really!) at people's reactions to others of different opinions. Guys, people have different opinions, doesn't make them any different to you, except their opinions. So lets have respect, and a realisation that (in general) it is a free world, where civilised people can have different opinions without prejudice from others. Ta.
All fine.
Opinions, everyone's got one, of course.
Some are more vocal about it than others.
However, when opinions show bias due to misinformation or ignorance of a given subject, it's not unreasonable to make an attempt to educate the person.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 11 Jan 2019 21:53

Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
Last edited by Chuck Glider on 11 Jan 2019 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 11 Jan 2019 22:18

Perhaps the answer to 's question can also be related to VTF. Increasing VTF by 0.2g on my AT-440MLb, improves the sound noticeably. Wouldn't changing VTF create an effective change of VTA?

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Re: Bright speaker cable

Post by cats squirrel » 11 Jan 2019 22:26

Spinner45 wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:09


All fine.
Opinions, everyone's got one, of course.
Some are more vocal about it than others.
However, when opinions show bias due to misinformation or ignorance of a given subject, it's not unreasonable to make an attempt to educate the person.

using who's dogma?

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Jan 2019 22:29

Chuck Glider wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:53
Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
As for any capacitance of speaker wiring, considering home use, and at audio frequencies, it's not anything to fuss about nor even discuss.
Wire size, on the other hand, should be considered, particularly if long runs are involved, to prevent losses.
To a lot of people, wire is wire, and they have no technical knowlege of differences, or quality.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by dysmike » 11 Jan 2019 22:59

Chuck Glider wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:53
Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
No, you still don't understand my complaint. Capacitance is a property. Capacitors are a manufactured component.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by dysmike » 11 Jan 2019 23:06

Spinner45 wrote:
11 Jan 2019 22:29
As for any capacitance of speaker wiring, considering home use, and at audio frequencies, it's not anything to fuss about nor even discuss.
Wire size, on the other hand, should be considered, particularly if long runs are involved, to prevent losses.
To a lot of people, wire is wire, and they have no technical knowlege of differences, or quality.
At pF/m capacitance (unless you're going to braid something, and that's a whole different issue), I agree.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 11 Jan 2019 23:58

Chuck Glider wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:53
Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
No not true we, actually it was me said capacitance in cables unless very high as for the 3 or 4 meter runs in speaker wire in domestic situations capacitance is really a non issue, you have to go out of your way and do something stupid like the crazy cat 5 speaker wires to make capacitance an issue that is what I said. Also again I said similar re resistance and inductance and we discussed impedance again 3-4m long normal wire not a problem, if we are wiring a concert hall maybe but not average hifi in lounge. Nobody said any of this was bunkum we said it was for audio frequencies for domestic lengths not he same thing.
The cow poop and coat hangers was VE members having a very VE light hearted joke after a very very long 19 page thread not aimed at anyone just a bit of fun.
Chris

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 12 Jan 2019 00:05

cafe latte wrote:
11 Jan 2019 23:58
Chuck Glider wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:53
Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
No not true we, actually it was me said capacitance in cables unless very high as for the 3 or 4 meter runs in speaker wire in domestic situations capacitance is really a non issue, you have to go out of your way and do something stupid like the crazy cat 5 speaker wires to make capacitance an issue that is what I said. Also again I said similar re resistance and inductance and we discussed impedance again 3-4m long normal wire not a problem, if we are wiring a concert hall maybe but not average hifi in lounge. Nobody said any of this was bunkum we said it was for audio frequencies for domestic lengths not he same thing.
The cow poop and coat hangers was VE members having a very VE light hearted joke after a very very long 19 page thread not aimed at anyone just a bit of fun.
Chris
120 page so far.... 1795 posts... ugh!

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 12 Jan 2019 11:21

OK, I'll chill out. There is actually quite a lot of agreement among us anyway.

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Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 12 Jan 2019 23:27

wrote:
12 Jan 2019 14:17
cafe latte wrote:
11 Jan 2019 23:58
Chuck Glider wrote:
11 Jan 2019 21:53
Spinner45, exactly who is trying to educate whom here?

People told me that capacitance in cables is bunkum. I showed the scientific reasoning and research behind it. Indeed, when I was challenged that when you draw a circuit diagram of an amp to a speaker, no capacitance or inductance exists. Copper is copper, electrons "don't care", etc. However, I explained where these components should be put, and indeed, here in Figure 1 on page 50 is corroboration of that from Professor Greiner, who I have to say is likely to be more qualified on the subject than anyone on this forum:
https://www.acmebass.com/archive_files/ ... 8-1989.pdf

In the thread, I was lambasted, and shouted down with talk about poop, and cows, and coat hangers.

So, who's trying to educate whom, and who has bias based on lack of knowledge? (and I remind folks that I hold a degree and PhD in physics and did actually teach undergraduate experimental physics and electronics at Cambridge University (albeit in the 1990s).
No not true we, actually it was me said capacitance in cables unless very high as for the 3 or 4 meter runs in speaker wire in domestic situations capacitance is really a non issue, you have to go out of your way and do something stupid like the crazy cat 5 speaker wires to make capacitance an issue that is what I said. Also again I said similar re resistance and inductance and we discussed impedance again 3-4m long normal wire not a problem, if we are wiring a concert hall maybe but not average hifi in lounge. Nobody said any of this was bunkum we said it was for audio frequencies for domestic lengths not he same thing.
The cow poop and coat hangers was VE members having a very VE light hearted joke after a very very long 19 page thread not aimed at anyone just a bit of fun.
Chris
In one of my bands we had a bank of four 150 watt lights in a light bar. The guitar player was an electrician. The entire setup's power wire was cat-5 wire. I thought he was nuts and, actually, he was, but he was right about whether the wire could handle it. But there are other reasons you don't want to use cat-5. The connectors, for starters...
Yes they crack, but that is not the problem I was on about. A few years back and probably nutters are still doing it there was a how to online for diy high end speaker cables. Basically it was platted cat 5 cables so basically enormous capacitance. I dont doubt these cables sounded different to normal speaker wire as any amp connected to them would likely be very unhappy indeed some would for sure go into parasitic oscillation then bang and smoke. Possibly entertaining for a few minutes anyway :lol:
Chris

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