The X Files (merged cable topic)

anything and nothing
cafe latte
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Australia
Posts: 10654
Joined: 11 Oct 2009 04:27
Location: Cattle property near Ravenshoe Qld Australia

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 09 Jan 2019 06:20

Spinner45 wrote:
09 Jan 2019 04:48
I count 118 pages of discussion/debate about this topic.
118 pages?
Now, isn't that just a little bit weird?
118 pages about the principals of wire?
Think about it.
Very true the physics of electricity ie current and voltage and conductors is not that complicated and very understood, but some just dont believe it it is honestly crazy that something so understood as electricity that has been studied for so long some still want to make what happens in wire mystical.
Chris

Spinner45
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 3001
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 09 Jan 2019 08:10

cafe latte wrote:
09 Jan 2019 06:20
Spinner45 wrote:
09 Jan 2019 04:48
I count 118 pages of discussion/debate about this topic.
118 pages?
Now, isn't that just a little bit weird?
118 pages about the principals of wire?
Think about it.
Very true the physics of electricity ie current and voltage and conductors is not that complicated and very understood, but some just dont believe it it is honestly crazy that something so understood as electricity that has been studied for so long some still want to make what happens in wire mystical.
Chris
Well Chris, some people just are not familier with electricity, its properties, and things like Ohms Law and such.
They just haven't been taught that in school, surely been focused on other curriculums and facets of learning.
For instance, my mother (RIP) never understood that stuff, not a clue about how the light turned off, or on, when she flipped the switch. - nor could she care, as long as my father paid the electic bill.
I could have told her little bug things traveled in those wires making the light "wake up", and flipping the switch opened a little door for the buggies.

These days, the curious ones gravitate to the internet for questions.
And some of those questions are answered by others who likely got "their" information from another educationally limited "guru".
Yeah, we've got hoardes of "self-proclaimed" experts out there, informing hoardes of others with all kinds of BS.
That's a fact, I know it, you know it, others smart enough to know better, do.
But nevertheless, the spillage of misinformation, rumors, and myths, will continue to flood the internet, and there's nothing you or I can do about it.
Our attempts to "straighten out" others regarding the BS will always be fought with beliefs deeply ingrained in others, as well as opinions based on individual preferences.
If someone can insist that they can "hear" a difference between coathanger wire, solid copper Romex, and 16 gauge stranded copper wire, good for them - of course it's in their mind, and they'll type that keyboard into the next millenium to vouch for that deep rooted belief.
So why worry? - as long as you can understand the facts of something, having solid "accurate" backing gleaned from learning "by the book" and not "over the internet" it's all just fine.

tlscapital
long player
long player
Belgium
Posts: 1733
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 14:27
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by tlscapital » 09 Jan 2019 10:07

Are $15/meter speaker's cables considered over expensive (not worth it) or not ?

What is the maximum advised length for speaker's cables ?

And what about tonearms cables and pre to amp ones ? ($ & meters)

cafe latte
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Australia
Posts: 10654
Joined: 11 Oct 2009 04:27
Location: Cattle property near Ravenshoe Qld Australia

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 09 Jan 2019 13:37

tlscapital wrote:
09 Jan 2019 10:07
Are $15/meter speaker's cables considered over expensive (not worth it) or not ?

What is the maximum advised length for speaker's cables ?

And what about tonearms cables and pre to amp ones ? ($ & meters)
Look at tables for resistance and length for gauges and resistance is is very low amps and speakers are very immune to changes in this respect by design. Speakers have inductance coils and caps in the crossover for example to Help deal with this. How longa wire do you want to run? My room is 9m x 8m domestic situations are not often larger than that and wire runs for speakers are not a problem even longer than that.
Chris

derspankster
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1455
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:03
Location: Ohio

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by derspankster » 09 Jan 2019 14:32

A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

Thomas Tusser in Five Hundreth Pointes of Good Husbandrie, 1573

Chuck Glider
member
member
Great Britain
Posts: 39
Joined: 12 Dec 2018 23:35

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 09 Jan 2019 14:48

cafe latte wrote:
09 Jan 2019 03:49
Not true Nuts, losses from resistance are super tiny even in thin wire, capacitance is basically irrelevant in speaker wire unless you are talking about stupid cat 5 speaker cable where capacitance is huge and can send your amp up in smoke. Capacitance does not change phase of anything this is just not true.
Chris
Chris, on thin wire - I'm referring to the blind testing done by Sound & Vision, where 24 gauge cable was audibly different. I'm also referring to the experience of many on this forum - quite a few folks say that after 16 gauge, there are diminishing returns. I'd agree. But the fact is that thin wire is audibly different.

Impedance (an electrical engineering property that combines the effects of resistance, capacitance and inductance) has been MEASURED in speaker wire against frequency. Inadequate cables display increasing impedance with frequency (See the work of Fred Davis for example (figure 4):
https://acmebass.com/archive_files/mag_ ... 7-1993.pdf

Regarding phase (see box on the page before Figure 4 in Davis above), capacitance and inductance, etc, I'm refusing to say any more on the subject. Instead, I give you also the Professor's words, with which I completely agree:

https://acmebass.com/archive_files/mag_ ... 8-1989.pdf

Science, engineering and ears. No coat hangers, cows or poop.

derspankster
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1455
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:03
Location: Ohio

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by derspankster » 09 Jan 2019 16:36

All copper 12 ga. zip with a clear jacket (sold as "speaker" wire), terminals soldered on the speaker ends and tinned on the amplifier end. I'm good. I need nothing else. I have heard a friends system with the identical speakers and his high dollar speaker cable. I detected no difference. I guessed I'm blessed.

der

rewfew
long player
long player
Posts: 1103
Joined: 08 Mar 2009 17:50
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by rewfew » 09 Jan 2019 18:37

addicted-to-analog wrote:
09 Jan 2019 01:24
Some folks do seem to be afraid to let anyone have a simple conversation regarding cable and wire.
Trouble with it is. It has about as much to add to the intellectual pursuit of good audio as does a conversation about shoe laces does with footwear, (and about as interesting). Wire and cable are merely connector's between audio equipment. When they meet the simple reasonable requirements to transfer the signal, then, their merit regarding the resulting sound stands in line as much as does the circuit board traces do. This whole contrivance is blatant marketing scheme's and pseudo science above and beyond the basic premise of the known electrical properties attributed to wire.
addicted-to-analog wrote:
09 Jan 2019 01:24
The alternative is that some new poster starts a wire/cable thread, the "usual suspects" jump in and render any rational discussion impossible and then the posts get moved here.
The usual suspects run both ways, kinda like a.c. current. How about taking his advise and go where the link goes to express this muse. Seems like it's a Utopian place to have deep discussions in all aspects of wire and cable. And there with a host of fellow believer's, any would be negative naysayers can be pounced on and rendered asunder.

Spinner45
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 3001
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 09 Jan 2019 19:24

derspankster wrote:
09 Jan 2019 16:36
All copper 12 ga. zip with a clear jacket (sold as "speaker" wire), terminals soldered on the speaker ends and tinned on the amplifier end. I'm good. I need nothing else. I have heard a friends system with the identical speakers and his high dollar speaker cable. I detected no difference. I guessed I'm blessed.

der
I use 16 gauge zip cord to my speakers, running about 8 feet each, tinned at either end to prevent fraying..
Plain, copper zip cord, it's all you need.
Unless, of course, you've been brainwashed by advertizing, brand names, and internet babble.

derspankster
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1455
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:03
Location: Ohio

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by derspankster » 09 Jan 2019 20:35

Spinner45 wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:24
derspankster wrote:
09 Jan 2019 16:36
All copper 12 ga. zip with a clear jacket (sold as "speaker" wire), terminals soldered on the speaker ends and tinned on the amplifier end. I'm good. I need nothing else. I have heard a friends system with the identical speakers and his high dollar speaker cable. I detected no difference. I guessed I'm blessed.

der
I use 16 gauge zip cord to my speakers, running about 8 feet each, tinned at either end to prevent fraying..
Plain, copper zip cord, it's all you need.
Unless, of course, you've been brainwashed by advertizing, brand names, and internet babble.
Yes, mine is just zip cord. My wife liked it because of the clear jacket (blended in) It was cheap even though it was called speaker wire it's just zip cord.

der

cafe latte
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Australia
Posts: 10654
Joined: 11 Oct 2009 04:27
Location: Cattle property near Ravenshoe Qld Australia

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 10 Jan 2019 00:04

Chuck Glider wrote:
09 Jan 2019 14:48
cafe latte wrote:
09 Jan 2019 03:49
Not true Nuts, losses from resistance are super tiny even in thin wire, capacitance is basically irrelevant in speaker wire unless you are talking about stupid cat 5 speaker cable where capacitance is huge and can send your amp up in smoke. Capacitance does not change phase of anything this is just not true.
Chris
Chris, on thin wire - I'm referring to the blind testing done by Sound & Vision, where 24 gauge cable was audibly different. I'm also referring to the experience of many on this forum - quite a few folks say that after 16 gauge, there are diminishing returns. I'd agree. But the fact is that thin wire is audibly different.

Impedance (an electrical engineering property that combines the effects of resistance, capacitance and inductance) has been MEASURED in speaker wire against frequency. Inadequate cables display increasing impedance with frequency (See the work of Fred Davis for example (figure 4):
https://acmebass.com/archive_files/mag_ ... 7-1993.pdf

Regarding phase (see box on the page before Figure 4 in Davis above), capacitance and inductance, etc, I'm refusing to say any more on the subject. Instead, I give you also the Professor's words, with which I completely agree:

https://acmebass.com/archive_files/mag_ ... 8-1989.pdf

Science, engineering and ears. No coat hangers, cows or poop.
That test is done by a mag which advertises cables not independent and not scientifically controlled so I stand by what I said that there are not scientifically controlled tests that exist where people have heard a difference that has been proven.
Can impedance affect the sound? Yes it is why things are done differently for long PA setups, but go back to what I said originally about my room being very big for hifi at 9mx8m. With home hifi unless you make crazy speaker wires like cat 5 platted ones resistance inductance and capacitance and indeed your impedance will be irrelevant. In my 8m wide room with hifi and amp in the middle speaker cable runs would be maybe 3.5m each for that lamp cord would be sufficient. Go and get a decent meter and measure the capacitance of a 3m piece of lamp wire then its resistance, then tell me there is a problem. I cant be bothered looking for the link I posted last time but it is buried in this epic thread which explain all this better than I can and explains what actually can make a difference and what cant and why.
Re coat hangers and cow poop, this massive thread (119 pages) was well overdue for a bit of a joke, if you found it offensive you might be taking all this a wee bit too seriously. Anyway opening a jar of cow poop in the listening room would for sure have a real measurable effect on the listening experience, far more than a piece of wire :-&
All the best
Chris and moo from the cows..

cafe latte
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Australia
Posts: 10654
Joined: 11 Oct 2009 04:27
Location: Cattle property near Ravenshoe Qld Australia

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by cafe latte » 10 Jan 2019 00:27

derspankster wrote:
09 Jan 2019 20:35
Spinner45 wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:24
derspankster wrote:
09 Jan 2019 16:36
All copper 12 ga. zip with a clear jacket (sold as "speaker" wire), terminals soldered on the speaker ends and tinned on the amplifier end. I'm good. I need nothing else. I have heard a friends system with the identical speakers and his high dollar speaker cable. I detected no difference. I guessed I'm blessed.

der
I use 16 gauge zip cord to my speakers, running about 8 feet each, tinned at either end to prevent fraying..
Plain, copper zip cord, it's all you need.
Unless, of course, you've been brainwashed by advertizing, brand names, and internet babble.
Yes, mine is just zip cord. My wife liked it because of the clear jacket (blended in) It was cheap even though it was called speaker wire it's just zip cord.

der
Mine is speaker wire but just zip cord which is cheaper than mains cable or lamp cord :D
Over the years had all sorts even expensive stuff as a teenager I too bought into the cable myth. One of the best cable babbles I heard years ago and it was a hifi mag cant remember which as a teenager I used to buy a few. Anyway the article in question recommended changing speaker wire every few years as electrons get depleted :lol: As much as at the time I was buying into the cable thing and hifi I remember having a laugh about that hifi mag advice.
We all can spend our money as we see fit and those who want to spend it on cables so be it. I have way too many turntable carts that is my thing and so many does not make sense either, we do what we do.. That said my departed friend who passed away around a couple of years back who owned a hifi shop had various rolls of expensive speaker wire in his hifi shop, those rolls had the highest profit margin by a long long way of anything in his shop and this then makes you wonder what the cable makers are making profit wise if the shop markup is so much?
Chris

Chuck Glider
member
member
Great Britain
Posts: 39
Joined: 12 Dec 2018 23:35

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Chuck Glider » 10 Jan 2019 07:49

Chris you have misunderstood. Both papers were first published in scientific peer reviewed journals before being edited for publication in hifi magazines. Each article has a profile of the writer (Prof Greiner and Fred Davis) You can find the journal references and even copies of the original papers online.

And btw, we all agree including the writers that you do not need expensive cable, and that sufficient thickness of conductor is important.

My personal position is that explained by Greiner and Davis. I've noted that the cables I listened to at the start of my part of this thread are both thinner than 12 awg. So I've bought some cheap 12 awg and will try it out.

Spinner45
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 3001
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 10 Jan 2019 17:52

wrote:
10 Jan 2019 13:16
cafe latte wrote:
10 Jan 2019 00:27
Anyway the article in question recommended changing speaker wire every few years as electrons get depleted
That is a crack up. I've learned that all I have to do to fix that is, every two years, disconnect my speaker wire and use each side to short out a D battery until the wire feels "warm". At that point my speaker wire is fully charged and brings awesome sound that is noticeably better for the next two years. I'm a DIY guy. ;)


Note: For those in Rio Linda, I'm kidding. :D
Why not just empty out your wallet by buying one of those fancy-dancy Cable Cookers?
They're highly touted by some of those online audio review guru's, and after a good cook, those wires are claimed to have ultra-sonic powers.

Spinner45
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 3001
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: The X Files (merged cable topic)

Post by Spinner45 » 10 Jan 2019 19:02

wrote:
10 Jan 2019 18:35
Spinner45 wrote:
10 Jan 2019 17:52

Why not just empty out your wallet by buying one of those fancy-dancy Cable Cookers?
They're highly touted by some of those online audio review guru's, and after a good cook, those wires are claimed to have ultra-sonic powers.
You're right! they are probably much safer too. :)
Of course they are!

To partially quote a sane, honest reviewer from another website:
"You will never hear how good your cables can sound if they're not cooked and demos will seem pointless without a cable cooker.
....I couldn't believe my ears. Differences between cables are easily revealed.
Every quarter I recharge all of my cables to keep them at their optimum level. This is a piece of equipment that all serious music lovers need.."


That last statement ^ ought to amuse Chris / caffe latte. :lol:

It's simple, and convenient too!
Simply bake, at 350 degrees, for 72 hours, basting every 5 hours or so, and when the insulation is a light, toasty brown, remove, allow to cool, and serve up some fresh delicious cables.
Your guests will wonder what your secret is!
They'll be begging for second servings!

Post Reply