Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

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fscl
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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by fscl » 09 Dec 2018 15:20

An aside here, since I cannot find topic (locked ?) "How Low Does Your Source Material Go"

Thought this might be interesting, have not tried to play this through the main system with sub yet:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/scie ... ounds.html

Fred

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 09 Dec 2018 17:37

fscl wrote:
09 Dec 2018 15:20
An aside here, since I cannot find topic (locked ?) "How Low Does Your Source Material Go"

Thought this might be interesting, have not tried to play this through the main system with sub yet:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/scie ... ounds.html

Fred
I could barely discern, my sub only goes down to 24 Hz. But, kind of neat hearing sounds literally out of this world, what little I could hear.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by dysmike » 10 Dec 2018 00:38

It's room shape, more than anything IMO.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Dec 2018 10:28

dysmike wrote:
10 Dec 2018 00:38
It's room shape, more than anything IMO.
What was your solution to bass pleasure ? That's to say, what subwoofer/s have you integrated into your system and what means do you manage bass output from them for stereo music, multi-channel music, and/or movies? Do you have an album, song, or movie which pleases you more since making your subwoofer arrangements?

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Dec 2018 11:55

JDJX wrote:
08 Dec 2018 18:07
Troll? You got a mirror handy? :)

BTW, you say that you have a (necessary?) DSP in the mix. This means that the analog signal first has to be converted into a digital signal ...to be processed and changed digitally. Then, it has to converted back again into an analog signal.
Goodbye to a pure analog signal. from your TT.

Also
I don't understand much of what I've read in this thread...
I will let your admission speak for its self. :)
Here's the information you requested before you edited your post. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... er-basics/

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 10 Dec 2018 12:49

Edited post? :?

Anyway...your link just reinforces what I have already said .
For one thing, nowhere does it say that a passive sub is better.
One would have to assume that you do not understand your own link as well. :)

BTW, just one comment in your link...

"Now for the bad news: More often than not, subwoofers can degrade a playback system’s musical performance. Either the subwoofer is poorly engineered (many are), set up incorrectly, or, as is increasingly common, it’s designed to reproduce explosions in a home-theater system, not resolve musical subtleties".

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Dec 2018 13:38

JDJX wrote:
10 Dec 2018 12:49
Edited post? :?

Anyway...your link just reinforces what I have already said .
For one thing, nowhere does it say that a passive sub is better.
One would have to assume that you do not understand your own link as well. :)

BTW, just one comment in your link...

"Now for the bad news: More often than not, subwoofers can degrade a playback system’s musical performance. Either the subwoofer is poorly engineered (many are), set up incorrectly, or, as is increasingly common, it’s designed to reproduce explosions in a home-theater system, not resolve musical subtleties".
Nice try, it undermines your assertion that an active subwoofer is way better than passive, defined by where the amplification is placed. Comprehension of the article would make a reasonable reader realize whether active or passive, quality is commenserate with component matching, power, and sub placement. No where is it implyed that a self contained active sub is "miles" better for any music or movie application. My sub is set up correctly, and is indifferent to movies or music, resolving musical subtleties, as well as movie thrills. That's because the bass management for movies, surround sound, and multi-channel music are controlled by segregated systems. You apparently do not understand bass management.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 10 Dec 2018 14:02

Fact is, I'm not "trying" to do anything... just relating the truth about subs.
The question that begs to be answered. is...... What are you trying to do?

BTW, an active sub IS better than a passive sub when you have to add a DSP to the mix . :)

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Dec 2018 14:22

JDJX wrote:
10 Dec 2018 14:02
Fact is, I.m not "trying" to do anything... just relating the truth about subs.
The question that begs to be answered. is...... What are you trying to do? :)
Really? No, you are not relating any truth about subs. You are delivering highly uniformed opinion, as proven by your claim that active subs are way better than passive. That statement implies better is the result of the power amp being internal rather than external, which is the definition of an active sub. My comments are based on factual conditions and experience with the concept, not notions from limited contact with the subject. :D And BTW, DSP does not have to be added to the mix when any analog crossover is incorporated in amplification chain. Again, it's either in the box or it's outside of the box. My discription of DSP is one of three means I use to get bass management. The other is from multi-channel analog preamplifier, or OPPO UDP-205 for multi-channel SACD pleasure. But, all of this is way above your comprehension level as you are demonstrating.
Last edited by Sterling1 on 10 Dec 2018 14:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 10 Dec 2018 14:32

Here is a very interesting article about the use of subs.....its history and use.... etc.....

https://pitchfork.com/features/oped/966 ... ubwoofers/

BTW, as I always say, a properly adjusted sub will be mostly silent most of the time coupled with adequate mains.
It's just that the sub will at times produce some very low instrument overtones (if the program material even has them)....and the rare occasion that a musical mote will even go that low.
A sub should not produce more bass just for the sake of producing more bass.

Keep in mind that iI said with "adequate" mains.
With less than adequate mains, all bets are off and a sub will not save them .
I will concede that "adequate mains" is arbitrary and will mean different things to different people. :)
Last edited by JDJX on 10 Dec 2018 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Dec 2018 14:54

JDJX wrote:
10 Dec 2018 14:32
Here is a very interesting article about the use of subs.....its history and use.... etc.....

https://pitchfork.com/features/oped/966 ... ubwoofers/
Now, that's a very interesting article. And, the assertions made are sometimes true. In my system, I sometimes can not discern amplification of low bass frequencies is providing me with a better listening pleasure from vinyl. That's because the low bass is not there to begin with and attempting to get it from thin air by turning up the bass is to anyone's ears awful. I think that may be your complaint about bringing bass into the mix without some discretion. On the other hand, for dance music presented from AAC streams, and downloads the subwoofer is essential to a full experience. In fact, my sub, a JBL B-380 was engineered to provide bass extension in use with JBL L100's to maximize music pleasure from the then new CD, which could easily deliver low level bass, without the RIAA conditions/restraints imposed to deliver low level bass from vinyl. :D Fun stuff.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 10 Dec 2018 19:58

FWIW....
My position is any well adjusted system (inducing a sub) should sound great with any genre of music.
Having said that... LP are mixed differently ... with different studio monitors (that may or may not be 100% EQed correctly), with different ears, and often with a particular sound in mind.

So adjusting a sub for a genre or a particular LP that may or my not be the "norm" may not be a good idea IMO.
Adjusting for differences is what tone controls are for but, tone controls now seem to be a devil's tool theses day by some.
IMO, unless you have good frequency balance (for any genre) it's all for naught.

BTW, I have had some limited experience in recording recording studios in the early '70s ( rock band) and the studios did not have subs.. just good real studio monitors.
Keep in mind that a popular real studio monitor back then.... actually used in many top studios was the commercial version of the JBL L-100 that sounded the same as their consumer version....same drivers and all in a fancy cabinet. :)

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by dysmike » 10 Dec 2018 20:30

Sterling1 wrote:
10 Dec 2018 10:28
dysmike wrote:
10 Dec 2018 00:38
It's room shape, more than anything IMO.
What was your solution to bass pleasure ? That's to say, what subwoofer/s have you integrated into your system and what means do you manage bass output from them for stereo music, multi-channel music, and/or movies? Do you have an album, song, or movie which pleases you more since making your subwoofer arrangements?
In previous spaces, I've had to do dual subs. The architecture/furniture layout created dead spots. Currently, no such need. I don't have a routine, just what I've been listening to regularly at the time.. and then I listen for kick drums. Oh and I've done the subwoofer crawl a few times, that works reasonably.

Then we start watching movies, and the DSP has the sub way too loud.... that typically takes a few genres of movies to work through.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JoeE SP9 » 10 Dec 2018 21:43

Quite often the bass in movies is mixed overly loud. This is to wow the theater goer.

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Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 11 Dec 2018 00:33

JDJX wrote:
10 Dec 2018 19:58
FWIW....
My position is any well adjusted system (inducing a sub) should sound great with any genre of music.
Having said that... LP are mixed differently ... with different studio monitors (that may or may not be 100% EQed correctly), with different ears, and often with a particular sound in mind.

So adjusting a sub for a genre or a particular LP that may or my not be the "norm" may not be a good idea IMO.
Adjusting for differences is what tone controls are for but, tone controls now seem to be a devil's tool theses day by some.
IMO, unless you have good frequency balance (for any genre) it's all for naught.

BTW, I have had some limited experience in recording recording studios in the early '70s ( rock band) and the studios did not have subs.. just good real studio monitors.
Keep in mind that a popular real studio monitor back then.... actually used in many top studios was the commercial version of the JBL L-100 that sounded the same as their consumer version....same drivers and all in a fancy cabinet. :)
I heard the JBL L100 Century back in 1973 for the first time at a backyard party. The JBL's were set out on the host's back porch. The effortless volume sold me; yet, I could not afford a pair. It was not until 13 years later that I took the plunge for the latest in the series, which was, at that time, the L100t3. At any rate, I do not recall any studio in my neighborhood using subs until the late 1980's, although the JBL 4310, the professional version of the L100 Century was and still is seen in studios. Interestingly enough, JBL Synthesis has released another update of the L100. It's called the L100 Classic. It sells for $4000 a pair. That's roughly what the Century sold for back in 1972 adjusted for inflation. I'd love a pair; but, for $1000 more I can buy the JBL 4429's which would get me what I want, more effortless volume and jewel like details than what my L100t3's or the L100 Classic's can deliver.

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