How can this be a good idea?

snap, crackle and pop
nat
long player
long player
Posts: 4507
Joined: 07 Nov 2002 19:05

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by nat » 14 Nov 2018 23:32

Meitner, a innovative and respected designer/company in the early 80s, had a remarkably similar table. The Meitner sounded better than you might expect, and got some sympathetic reviews, but it wasn't all conquering in the market place. The company didn't make it long term, but that is not proof that the table was a bad idea. They made a variety of high end products, not just the table, and the audio world is littered with companies that went belly up despite making better mousetraps.
Having said all that, I wasn't convinced back then by the concept, and am not now, either. For what its worth, the Meitner looked better put together, and was nicer looking, to boot.

lenjack
long player
long player
Posts: 2209
Joined: 23 Jun 2017 02:11
Location: Liverpool,PA

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by lenjack » 15 Nov 2018 02:35

At first glance, I thought it was a Fisher-Price, but it's the wrong color. Wouldn't an unsupported platter resonate?

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 873
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 17:59

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by H. callahan » 15 Nov 2018 04:01

The idea of the designer isn´t that bad in theory, as a platter can transmit vibrations onto the record.
But:

-on this tt the record is clamped onto the spindle, so vibrations still are transmitted onto the record
-there is no platter mat being able to dampen vibrations
-because of that the record is able to vibrate more than on a normal tt as vibrations of the stylus will go onto the record
-a record should rest on something rather stiff as there is record flex; sounds ridiculous at first but the VTF is put onto a very small area so there is a microscopical flex of the record if the base its resting on is too soft or non-existent
-due to the lack of a platter there should be fewer inertia resulting in poorer w+f
-warped records cannot be flattened with a clamp as there is no platter to press them against

So a normal construction is superior as long as the bearing doesn´t produce too much vibrations and as long there is a good tt-housing preventing vibrations to go onto the tt/platter.

hobie1dog
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 330
Joined: 01 Oct 2008 20:41
Location: Cornelius, NC

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by hobie1dog » 15 Nov 2018 04:24

The Minter tt of the 80's had a similar design, so this is another copy.

Coffee Phil
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5808
Joined: 20 Sep 2008 08:22
Location: California

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by Coffee Phil » 15 Nov 2018 07:41

The “platter” on an Audio Technica Mister Disc is similar in size and it works surprisingly well, but it is portable. What is the point of this thing?

Phil

nat
long player
long player
Posts: 4507
Joined: 07 Nov 2002 19:05

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by nat » 15 Nov 2018 22:53

I'm trying to remember the theory behind the Meitner, and I believe it was this: The stylus puts energy into the record (the record applies a force to the stylus, the stylus applies an equal and opposite force), and, in conventional turntables, that energy moves through the vinyl, until it comes to an interface, where some energy is reflected and some transmitted, the similarity of the mediums determining the ratio. That same thing happens at each interface - vinyl to mat, mat to platter, platter to air (and platter to spindle, and so on and so on). So there is a constant series of reflections that comes back to the groove and the stylus, affecting the motion of the stylus, adding a layer of noise/coloration to the sound. Lest people think this implausible or ridiculous, keep in mind that this is exactly the reason mats are widely thought to have an effect on how a turntable sounds.
Meitner's view was that it was better to have one big reflection from the vinyl/air interface so that the reflection would arrive almost instantaneously, and be done with. He judged this to be less objectionable than the longer, though weaker reflections in the conventional set up.
As some Canadian audio oriented radio show noted, you can check this out yourself - remove the mat and place your record on a label size riser - they suggested cutting the labels out of a couple of records you hate - and see what you think. The show said it sounded good. I would assume a record weight would be a good addition.
Consider also that, in fact, many mats actually only support records at certain points, often only a small portion of the actual area of the record (I'm talking about you, Thorens. And Garrard and Dual and Fons and so on. And the highly regarded mat that was made of brown paper and two rings of cork, whose name eludes me.). Some tables, like the Transcriptors and Mitchells just support the record on a number of points, yet they apparently sound good. And remember fad of supporting the record on precisely three (or was it five, or seven) bubble wrap bubbles. Or watch glasses.
I'm inclined to think that it is significant that minimal support of the vinyl seems to keep erupting as a good thing, while also thinking it is significant that almost everyone eventually goes back to standard supportive mats. There must be some attractive aspects to the way records sound unsupported, but the sound seems to wear on people after a while.

ChrisfromRI
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 475
Joined: 13 May 2004 04:17
Location: New England

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by ChrisfromRI » 16 Nov 2018 00:26

I am NOT going to say I agree with the notion of a platter-less turntable. I also own nothing like this and all of my turntables are quite the opposite.

However, an engineer I know who is very into phono systems and even owns his own Neumann lathe for cutting records, and actively uses it to cut his own records, once told me that he had designed a platter-less turntable and it solved so many issues that he thought it was a superior solution. I never heard nor saw it, but I do respect the man as he is an excellent engineer - which is my background as well, though we have different specializations. Accordingly, I am trying to keep an open mind until I at least hear what it sounds like...

Pryso
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 210
Joined: 19 Oct 2006 01:32
Location: southwest MI

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by Pryso » 18 Nov 2018 19:18

At least this eliminates worries about which TT mat! ;^)

But seriously, there have been other attempts to eliminate or minimize the vinyl/platter interface. B&O offered a TT with multiple radial supports which left the vinyl with mostly open air underneath. Similarly there was a British mat with only a few nickel sized support discs. Also of course was the famous "Clockwork Orange" table - http://theturntableshop.com/rare-turntable-museum/

So a few continue to experiment with the concept. But if it was successful I think it would have been more universally adopted by now.

Spinner45
long player
long player
Posts: 2995
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 17:21

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by Spinner45 » 18 Nov 2018 20:12

Pryso wrote:
18 Nov 2018 19:18
At least this eliminates worries about which TT mat! ;^)

But seriously, there have been other attempts to eliminate or minimize the vinyl/platter interface. B&O offered a TT with multiple radial supports which left the vinyl with mostly open air underneath. Similarly there was a British mat with only a few nickel sized support discs. Also of course was the famous "Clockwork Orange" table - http://theturntableshop.com/rare-turntable-museum/

So a few continue to experiment with the concept. But if it was successful I think it would have been more universally adopted by now.
You're right.
And so....... the majority of turntables and record changers in the world all use a good sized platter and a rubber/neoprene mat.
All the other "designs" are just that..... designs, styles, superficial eye candy dramatics.

You cannot beat a full, heavy, platter, acting as a flywheel, to support records on.
Like a quality built home, on a solid foundation.

brassnwood
member
member
Posts: 192
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 23:39
Location: Hertfordshire U.K.

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by brassnwood » 08 Dec 2018 19:51

Hi Guys, I agree with Alec124c41 & ChrisfromRI in as much as - 'don't knock it until you HEAR it'
I removed my half inch glass platter on my DIY tt & replaced with 4" dia polystyrene sheet of same thickness [actually 3 pizza package supports] & I loved the results. Dare I say so Airy, it was as if I was hearing it live. Improved sound stage & clearer vocals. I am not an audiophile but I think the sound is superb. Maybe I will get tired of it but, until then ......

lenjack
long player
long player
Posts: 2209
Joined: 23 Jun 2017 02:11
Location: Liverpool,PA

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by lenjack » 08 Dec 2018 23:18

I'm going to try a marshmallow platter, for the cushioning effect. Should give a nice, softer sound.

Spinner45
long player
long player
Posts: 2995
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 17:21

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by Spinner45 » 09 Dec 2018 00:28

lenjack wrote:
08 Dec 2018 23:18
I'm going to try a marshmallow platter, for the cushioning effect. Should give a nice, softer sound.
And I'll stick some wine goblets on my turntable.
I want my music to sparkle. :lol:

lenjack
long player
long player
Posts: 2209
Joined: 23 Jun 2017 02:11
Location: Liverpool,PA

Re: How can this be a good idea?

Post by lenjack » 09 Dec 2018 00:57

Remember the vacuum devices that held the record fast to the platter. They really sucked. #-o