Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
Post Reply
JDJX
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4201
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 20:17
Location: Mid Hudson valley..... NY.....In the orginal Orange County

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 15 Jul 2018 02:40

It seems like you found a great setting for your system... given your sub and mains combo. =D>
As I said, you have to keep experimenting with different program types :)

One question though... Did you try various sub volume settings with each HZ change?
If not, this is what you should have done.

BTW, I'm into classical as well as classic rock, jazz, etc .

With Classical, I have found that it usually has less low baas than say, rock or jazz .

IndigoRock2001
senior member
senior member
Posts: 266
Joined: 11 Jun 2018 18:26
Location: San Francisco

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by IndigoRock2001 » 17 Jul 2018 23:19

[quote="JDJX"

One question though... Did you try various sub volume settings with each HZ change?
If not, this is what you should have done.


No. Not to be obtuse but why do you think I should have tried that?
indi

JDJX
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4201
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 20:17
Location: Mid Hudson valley..... NY.....In the orginal Orange County

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 18 Jul 2018 15:10

The HZ setting and volume setting on any sub have to work in concert with each other.......

For example, you might set the perfect HZ setting but the sub volume might be too high or two low..... making the HZ setting appear to be not correct.......or vice versa.

In other words, the subs volume setting is just as important as a given HZ setting.

To be honest, your 115HZ setting seems high , but admittedly I'm not familiar with you mains.
Perhaps a lower HZ setting might sound better with the proper sub volume. :)

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5116
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JoeE SP9 » 19 Jul 2018 18:12

Alec124c41 wrote:Bass guitar at 43 Hz is not uncommon, and can be the touch that puts a recording across.

Cheers,
Alec
In the interest of accuracy I'm pointing out that open E on a four string electric bass is tuned to 41.2Hz. For a 5 or 6 string bass the open B string is tuned to 31.8Hz. The fundamentals for pipe organs are even lower. They have fundamentals as low as 4Hz or 8Hz.


So, if you want to hear an electric bass properly reproduced you need reasonably flat response to ~30Hz. Very few so called full range speakers are flat to 30Hz. Hence the need for a subwoofer, although two is better.

As for setting the crossover frequency on a powered sub, IMO/E the best place to start is the -3dB point of the main speakers. For level the important thing to remember is that you should only know a subwoofer is being used when you turn it off. If you can tell a subwoofer is being used it's too loud.


IME most complaints about a sub not integrating properly are because it's to loud and/or the crossover frequency is too high.


FWIW: I've been using dual subs for 20+ years even though my main speakers are and have been full range.

IndigoRock2001
senior member
senior member
Posts: 266
Joined: 11 Jun 2018 18:26
Location: San Francisco

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by IndigoRock2001 » 01 Aug 2018 00:07

JDJX wrote: To be honest, your 115HZ setting seems high , but admittedly I'm not familiar with you mains.
Perhaps a lower HZ setting might sound better with the proper sub volume. :)
I don't know why it's so high. The mains are about 4 foot tall Marantz, and it's true I hardly need a subwoof, they give off a lot of bass. It's just that the 115hz setting was the only one where the bass stopped this particular boom it was doing. It almost sounded like it was clipping. I'm getting a new Denon amp to replace my Yamaha so I'm hoping all of my speaker settings are going to be somehow transferable, since it's taken me about a year to get them right (this is all of my speakers 12 of them hooked to my 7.1 surround) As I've mentioned elsewhere I like to hook speakers in series to get more color out of extra speakers with different ranges. I've got 3 sets of speakers hooked to my mains. I suppose this throws the Ohm ratings completely out of whack and all of the stuff people worry about here that I don't really understand. I guess the main issue is that it sounds good to me. Though really I'd like to understand Ohm's and Watt's etc...
indi

JDJX
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4201
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 20:17
Location: Mid Hudson valley..... NY.....In the orginal Orange County

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JDJX » 02 Aug 2018 23:18

Again.. you must adjust a subs volume level with every HZ change.

Now... a high HZ level such as you now have might reduce the boomyness you experienced but only because the mid bass was augmented as well.... resulting in a just louder overall bass but, not necessarily at a correct level. :)

lenjack
long player
long player
Posts: 2190
Joined: 23 Jun 2017 02:11
Location: Liverpool,PA

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by lenjack » 11 Aug 2018 01:35

As mentioned above, the sub should not call attention to itself. On most recordings, you should not even notice it is there.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 832
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 16 Aug 2018 11:30

thGE5C11LF.jpg
(8.789999999999999 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
There are a multitude of adjustments which might be needed to properly integrate a subwoofer to a music and/or home theatre system. Over all, it's tempting to over do it, or attempt to get bass from music which does not have any low bass content. I'm very satisfied with my adjustments: mains are set to crossover at 60 Hz, sub amp is set at half gain, and sub volume is adjusted to match levels of mains, center, and surround channels. This volume matching, for stereo, is controlled via my 5.1 pre/pro. Volume matching for multi-channel SACD is controlled by the SACD Player. My test recordings are Kanye West's Love Lockdown and Diana Krall's Love Scenes Album (multi-channel layer hybrid SACD). At any rate, when playing music or movies at a low volume bass effect is diminished and on such occasions I can increase the sub amp's gain.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5116
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JoeE SP9 » 16 Aug 2018 22:23

For adjusting the levels and equalization on my dual subs I use a Umik1 microphone, REW and a laptop. The results are applied to my subs via an electronic crossover (DBX223) and a 12 band per channel DSP (Behringer 1124P).

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 832
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 17 Aug 2018 15:15

JoeE SP9 wrote:For adjusting the levels and equalization on my dual subs I use a Umik1 microphone, REW and a laptop. The results are applied to my subs via an electronic crossover (DBX223) and a 12 band per channel DSP (Behringer 1124P).
Using the mic, I assume assures accuracy in adjustment of multiple speaker level/volume, delay, etc. to a listening location. Do you make any decisions regarding the sub output using your ears? In my system I only used my ears to get the sub to "sound right".

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5116
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JoeE SP9 » 17 Aug 2018 16:27

I discovered long ago that despite "faith" in my hearing, using measurements was more accurate and ultimately more musically satisfying. I use my ears only to set actual listening levels via the volume control on my preamp.

Everything frequency response wise is measured. I take measurements in multiple locations and average them. My DSP and electronic crossover are then set using those measurements. It's a royal PITA to do this. However, as long as I don't change gear or the room it's a set and forget thing.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 832
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Sterling1 » 17 Aug 2018 17:40

JoeE SP9 wrote:I discovered long ago that despite "faith" in my hearing, using measurements was more accurate and ultimately more musically satisfying. I use my ears only to set actual listening levels via the volume control on my preamp.

Everything frequency response wise is measured. I take measurements in multiple locations and average them. My DSP and electronic crossover are then set using those measurements. It's a royal PITA to do this. However, as long as I don't change gear or the room it's a set and forget thing.
Well, I'm glad you're satisfied with it all. My equipment is somewhat limited to simply allowing me to select a 60 or 80 Hz crossover for each channel, although the correct crossover is 63 Hz; thereafter using ears to set volume of each channel to level desired. It works for music but on movies I may need to raise subs amp gain for good results.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5116
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by JoeE SP9 » 19 Aug 2018 01:00

Speakers that are 3dB down at 63Hz IMO definitely need a subwoofer, preferably two.

That I have separates makes it relatively easy to set my rig up for flatter in room response. I've compared the results from using EmoQ (auto Eq) from my pre/pro (Emotiva UMC-200) and my measurements from the Umik1, REW and DSP applied to my two channel rig. They are both extremely close to each other. In fact they are so close that I use the Umik1/REW results for everything.

IMO that says that once you have reasonably flat response it applies equally to music and movies.

Hanuman
long player
long player
Posts: 1454
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 07:59
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by Hanuman » 19 Aug 2018 04:59

Sterling1 wrote:It works for music but on movies I may need to raise subs amp gain for good results.
JoeE SP9 wrote:IMO that says that once you have reasonably flat response it applies equally to music and movies.
JoeE's right; the calibration should be the same regardless of the application.

You can do this objectively. This is how a cinema or mixing theatre is done:

Take some -20dB RMS Pink Noise:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z0suI ... ZzwEB_dbY-

Using an SPL meter (or a phone app - better than nothing) at your listening position play the pink noise through each channel individually and adjust each channel to the same SPL. The standard for a cinema or large mixing theatre is 85dB and that will be pretty loud on movies in a living room (the 85dB is the calibration level, not the maximum SPL, which will be a lot higher). For a smaller studio or living room about 80dB might be better. Regardless, the object is to get the speakers level-matched so that you can adjust the group volume later.

The only slight caveat about this calibration is that it's meant for 5.1 where a single channel drives the sub (and there's an assumption that the frequency transition is correctly set) whereas most home HiFi subs handle both channels. Nevertheless, for HiFi I think it's still useful as long a you're only sending one channel to the sub for measurement.

One approach would be to set the sub's roll-off to the highest available and get the sub level-matched so that the only control you need to worry about is the roll-off frequency (although you could certainly argue that it's better to get the roll-off right first). The only way to do the roll-off objectively is with a calibrated mic and a spectrum analysis. Without those tools you'll have to do it off the spec. sheet or (worst option) by ear. In my own experience this is one area where adjustment according to subjective impression is quite risky. You're probably going to tend to set the level too high.

hobie1dog
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 330
Joined: 01 Oct 2008 20:41
Location: Cornelius, NC

Re: Sub woofer and Bass crosover in HZ

Post by hobie1dog » 14 Nov 2018 06:04

JBL always used 63hz in their B380 and B460 subs.

Post Reply