Grado Black2

the thin end of the wedge
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cafe latte
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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 22 Jun 2018 23:45

wojo58 wrote:Wish I could....the SL-D2 doesn't allow for that sort of blasphemy. Any way to affect this without the tonearm height adjustment option?

Now my sons AT LP120USB DOES allow for tail adjustments.....
That is a pity.. My Gold 2 sounds nice level but a little rolled off, but tail up it has the highs of any other cart. I read an article that all elliptical should be set up in this way for best contact of the groove and for the largest surface area of the stylus touching the groove wall. This of course will give more detail and it will make the stylus last longer too. I have other carts with elliptical, but the Grado does seem to need to be set up in this way to get the best from it. Tail up my Grado gold 2 sounds lovely right across the spectrum.
Chris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by BMRR » 23 Jun 2018 00:20

wojo58 wrote:Wish I could....the SL-D2 doesn't allow for that sort of blasphemy. Any way to affect this without the tonearm height adjustment option?
You can try using a thinner platter mat, but it might not make enough of a difference to be noticeable. You would need to use the absolute thinnest mat you can find, and that might have other (possibly negative) consequences to overall audio quality.

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by wojo58 » 23 Jun 2018 04:50

Could I shim the side of the cart farthest from the arm pivot? That should give the same attitude?

cafe latte
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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 23 Jun 2018 07:10

wojo58 wrote:Could I shim the side of the cart farthest from the arm pivot? That should give the same attitude?
Hmm yes that would work, here is what you are trying to achieve.
https://www.analogplanet.com/images/512 ... rticle.pdf
https://www.analogplanet.com/images/512 ... rticle.pdf
I dont think you need a microscope I managed with a 3x loup.
Chris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by Wimbo » 24 Jun 2018 10:47

BMRR wrote:I would take his review with a grain of salt. The last time he reviewed a Grado (the Gold1), he wrote "you can convert this to a P-mount cartridge by removing a set screw" which is not true or even close to being true, and it made me wonder how he came to such a bizarre conclusion.
https://www.lpgear.com/product/GRADGLDT4P.html

This.

cafe latte
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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 24 Jun 2018 12:13

I cant comment on black as mine is a gold 2, but set up as I said they are stunning and curious how they would sound with a retip, but good enough not to worry about that retip too much as mine sounds great.
Chris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by BMRR » 24 Jun 2018 19:33

Wimbo wrote:
BMRR wrote:I would take his review with a grain of salt. The last time he reviewed a Grado (the Gold1), he wrote "you can convert this to a P-mount cartridge by removing a set screw" which is not true or even close to being true, and it made me wonder how he came to such a bizarre conclusion.
https://www.lpgear.com/product/GRADGLDT4P.html

This.
Right, but he was reviewing the standard-mount version, not the P-mount version. There's no way to convert the standard-mount version to P-mount, despite what he wrote in his article.

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by pivot » 24 Jun 2018 21:19

"I read an article that all elliptical should be set up in this way for best contact of the groove and for the largest surface area of the stylus touching the groove wall."

Experimenting with VTA makes sense with any cartridge and is more audible with more exotic stylus shapes. HOWEVER it is simply incorrect to state that "all" elliptical stylus cartridges need to be in "tail-up" orientation. It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and even with different samples of the same cartridge. Beware any "one size fits all" advice.

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 25 Jun 2018 00:43

pivot wrote:"I read an article that all elliptical should be set up in this way for best contact of the groove and for the largest surface area of the stylus touching the groove wall."

Experimenting with VTA makes sense with any cartridge and is more audible with more exotic stylus shapes. HOWEVER it is simply incorrect to state that "all" elliptical stylus cartridges need to be in "tail-up" orientation. It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and even with different samples of the same cartridge. Beware any "one size fits all" advice.
Read the article properly, yes it is long but there is good reason for what is said. I went on and further researched the topic and tail up is always correct with elliptical, hyper elliptical and better, but it should be done looking at the stylus tip in the groove. Stylus cart to cart will vary in angle and the angle of stylus in cantilever, we know we need the tip 2 degrees past vertical for best tip contact, but cart to cart we dont know the angle the diamond tip is mounted at. I messed with a few of my carts and it was always tail up but by how much varied, but in all cases the arm needed to be very visibly tail up.
CHris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by wojo58 » 25 Jun 2018 02:04

I'm sorry Chris but from my experience with the AT440mlb this just doesn't ring true. I had to lower the the tail to make that cart sound better. To say that all hyper elliptical need to be tail up to some degree just doesn't make sense IMHO.

Now I did find that my first attempt to align the Grado was a little off. Fixing that, the detail has come up a bit but there's something weird in the bias. I need to set my AB to 3 to pass the 3rd AB test track on the test record. It's the only cart that behaves that way. Could the sytlus / cantelever be a bit skewed?

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by pivot » 25 Jun 2018 02:39

I read the article. Odds are I read the article in the 1980s when it was first published. Please reference to the paragraph where the authors state ALL elliptical stylus cartridges MUST have "tail up" orientation. They do talk about stylus orientation but if correct 92 degree Stylus Rake Angle is aligned with "tail up", "tail down", or flat level is not mentioned that I see. My experience with multiple set ups is sometimes "tail up" and sometimes not.

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 25 Jun 2018 09:10

wojo58 wrote:I'm sorry Chris but from my experience with the AT440mlb this just doesn't ring true. I had to lower the the tail to make that cart sound better. To say that all hyper elliptical need to be tail up to some degree just doesn't make sense IMHO.

Now I did find that my first attempt to align the Grado was a little off. Fixing that, the detail has come up a bit but there's something weird in the bias. I need to set my AB to 3 to pass the 3rd AB test track on the test record. It's the only cart that behaves that way. Could the sytlus / cantelever be a bit skewed?
Yes I guess it could be, can you see with a loup if it is the case? Tail up may not always be correct it is all about stylus rake angle this can vary a lot depending on the angle of the cantilever and the angle the stylus tip is attached to the cantilever. Mine all need tail up but I suppose it is possible difference is possible depending on these factors.
I set up my Grado getting the stylus tip vertical then dialing in the extra 2 degrees and it sounds amazing for its price.
Chris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by cafe latte » 25 Jun 2018 09:15

pivot wrote:I read the article. Odds are I read the article in the 1980s when it was first published. Please reference to the paragraph where the authors state ALL elliptical stylus cartridges MUST have "tail up" orientation. They do talk about stylus orientation but if correct 92 degree Stylus Rake Angle is aligned with "tail up", "tail down", or flat level is not mentioned that I see. My experience with multiple set ups is sometimes "tail up" and sometimes not.
Splitting hairs here you need stylus tip vertical then 2 degrees more for elliptical or hyper elliptical etc ie 2 degrees which is 6-8mm higher at the tail than level for a 9 inch arm, google it.
Chris

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by Boltman92124 » 25 Jun 2018 18:19

wojo58 wrote:I'm sorry Chris but from my experience with the AT440mlb this just doesn't ring true. I had to lower the the tail to make that cart sound better. To say that all hyper elliptical need to be tail up to some degree just doesn't make sense IMHO.

Now I did find that my first attempt to align the Grado was a little off. Fixing that, the detail has come up a bit but there's something weird in the bias. I need to set my AB to 3 to pass the 3rd AB test track on the test record. It's the only cart that behaves that way. Could the sytlus / cantelever be a bit skewed?
I have a 100e(similar to 440 config?). That stylus/cantilever is definitely a low rider and more parallel to the record surface than my other carts. Also the most difficult to see when aligning.

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Re: Grado Black2

Post by Jorlsafar » 01 Jan 2019 14:57

I recently bought one of these. I first had it set up on a Rega arm. It sounded very good but there was some inner groove distortion and other issues that was difficult to address, considering that the arm does not allow for VTA changing and has a fixed head shell. Moved it to a stock Sl1210 and set it up very carefully with a Baerwald protractor at 1,75 grammes. It sounds fantastic, absolutely fantastic.

I played a Mozart clarinet concert on DG and Grace Jones' Island Life. The clarinets and orchestra on the former sound natural. The solo clarinet sounds like real clarinet. The crescendos of the orchestra and high violin parts never "spills over" into harshness but feels lifelike and natural. The Grace Jones LP is very well recorded with fantastic musicians. There's air and bass and separation between the instruments. I also played Kill Them All by Metallica, which confirms derspanksters statement that the midrange is wonderful. Those guitars came through like chainsaws.

I played the Gold2 alongside a Black 2M through the same system. The 2M has a higher output, sits on a rega P7 and has been my only deck for abt 7 years (with various cartridges). In comparison the 2M was a bit more airy and had a more pronounced bass. It was different but not necessarily better. The Grado2 is easier on the ear. The Gold costs about one third of the 2M Black. It's a bargain.

Last but not least it's very, very quiet. All of the above mentioned records are favourites of mine and have been mistreated to various degrees. Its quietness was especially notable on the Mozart LP; the cracks did not come through and in order to hear them you needed to listen to them carefully. Never once was i distracted by any noise.

All the best!

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