What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

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gwernaffield
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What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 24 Jul 2017 12:39

HI after months of testing and a lot of heart ache , there were 7 types i tried
the normal steel , the Black ceramic , the aluminium ceramic , and the zircon ceramic ,Delrin ,Torlon ,PTFE , i liked the Black Ceramic but that has a problem and can micro crack and fail ,with the other 2 being ceramic i ditched them , so we get to the delrin which was discovered by accident by a friend Allan , who got mixed up and put the delrin in by mistake, who was made up with his deck as it stopped any noise ,from his bearing and the surface noise had reduced, on ordering more delrin balls, i was asked to try Torlon as it was a harder plastic, trying to get hold of the size i needed for the Michell was a hell of a job ,seemed to be available in the usa at a cost of $200 plus Post and import duty , but then the American company had a supplier in the uk , so the cost was 49p plus post , so i ordered 10,the guy who served me said have i tried PTFE ,NO , but at twice the price of the Torlon i bought 1 only to find out the PTFE was the BEST out of the lot ,so that is what i use and not the steel one

cats squirrel
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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by cats squirrel » 24 Jul 2017 13:17

didn't see that you had tried silicon nitride ones, as used in some vehicle differentials! They are very good, and hard wearing.

I would have thought most plastics, especially ptfe, were too soft for supporting heavy platters.

How did you assess them, by ear or measurement?

gwernaffield
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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 24 Jul 2017 15:18

Well what do you think the black ones are made out of silicon nitride, they crack , and are crap, for this application
I had this from a person, who writes reviews,
The Germans, found that the micro crack over time
I think it is because it is only one point of contact on the ball, the ones in a Diff, are in a cage and fully rotate where the one in a turntable only has a small point of contact that all the pressure has to go through so the load is not spread out like the ones in a Diff that are fully rotational in a cage and a lot bigger,
But all i can do is report what has happened in Germany,
i dumped them , as it would be like having a sander on the shaft i now use engineering plastics ,
Measurement was BY ear over several months, but hay if they break they don’t destroy the bearing,
also i have not had one go out of shape or wear down over the last 7 months of use, Even the PTFE one, you can find gears made of plastic ,that will see steel not used at all,
you forget the bearing is upside down and all the force travels through the ball and down the shaft, it is only a point to point contact and was designed that way by Michell, it is a a lot quieter than any other bearing, but the steel or ceramic ball, still makes noise transferred through the vinyl via the spindle top,
The plastic engineering balls I use were measured by using several micrometres to check for wear ,and several different decks apart from a Michell and other peoples ears ,who are still using them ,and a Stethoscope the same a Transrotor ,
so no bull s**t here , just being honest ,and not a dealer or a sales man if you can read where i am up to , on AOS on cheap upgrades for Michell gyro the bearing balls are a lot quieter than the ceramic or the steel,
cheers
Torlon is used in the following
•Chemical Resistant
•Creep Resistant
•Ductile
•Fatigue Resistant
•Flame Retardant
•Good Electrical Properties
•High Heat Resistance
•High Temperature Strength
•Low Temperature Toughness
•Ultra High Impact Resistance
•Wear Resistant
Uses
•Aircraft Applications
•Automotive Applications
•Bushings
Connectors
Electrical Parts
•Electrical/Electronic Applications
•Fasteners
•Film
•Machine/Mechanical Parts
•Oil/Gas Applications
•Semiconductor Molding Compounds
•Thrust Washer
RoHS Compliance
•RoHS Compliant
these are High Grade Bearing balls that are with in a tolerance of .002 mm they contain PTFE but the PTFE ones are 100% ptfe and are the same grade as the Torlon and Delrin ,

cats squirrel
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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by cats squirrel » 24 Jul 2017 17:10

one can't measure by ear, only do subjective assessment!

Sorry to see that you don't like silicon nitride. I have been using these for about 5 years, with no apparent problems. Maybe our German friend had a bad one!

To counter your lists and recommendations, here's mine:

"The Ceramic Material for Extreme Applications

Silicon nitrides (Si3N4) feature an excellent combination of material properties. They are nearly as light as silicon carbide (SiC), but their microstructure gives them excellent thermal shock resistance and their high fracture toughness makes them resistant to impacts and shocks.

The microstructure consists of elongated crystals that interlock into micro-rods. One application where this combination of properties has proven particularly useful is the machining of gray cast iron or cast iron with ceramic inserts. Unlike hard metals or other cutting materials, machining processes can be performed with ceramic inserts at maximum speed without the use of cooling lubricants. The combination of good tribological properties and excellent fracture toughness makes silicon nitride ceramics predestined for applications as balls and rolling elements for light and extremely precise bearings, heavy-duty ceramic forming tools and automotive components subject to high stress. And the good thermal shock resistance and high temperature resistance is exploited in welding processes.

Products made from Silicon Nitride (Si3N4)

Advanced Ceramic Tubes
Bearing Rollers
Bearing Technology in Automotive Engineering
Centering Pins
Ceramic Cutting Materials
Cutting Ceramics
Cutting Materials
Cyrol Bearing Rollers
Drawing Tools
Forming Applications
High-performance Cutting Tools
Indexable Inserts
Inserts
Machining"

I can't see why silicon nitride would be used in all these applications if it cracked!

gwernaffield
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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 24 Jul 2017 18:00

Well one can't measure by ear, only do subjective assessment! ? Please see the you tube video on Transrotor, who are a German company , also taught by J A MICHELL ,so a guess ears are correct , also microphone and amp not a squeak, and several hammers to try and smash the plastic ball which failed ,
The fact that someone has put up a post about bearings and you are not willing to accept any part of the reply’s just argue, there is a manufacturer in the uk who will not use silicon nitride Si3N4 in their bearings due to the problems of micro cracks,
they have opted to use the Aluminium Oxide Al2O3 but are looking at the plastic versions to see if they would out perform a ceramic bearing, all of these materials where never designed to do what we are trying to do, make it run on one single point on a sphere, All the pressure and friction goes through that point on the ball,
Plastic when it wears there is no damage to the single point contact on the bearing
, where are ceramic will grind the top off the point of contact away,
The cantering pins in your reply are to locate nuts to weld on the automotive line as the nut needs to be cantered to weld not a ball bearing , welding rollers are used to seam weld and are not a ball bearing,
We can agree to disagree, there are several Grades of all these bearings for size and finish, so depending on the one you are using,
Will it be a grade 25 -grade 10 -grade 5 or grade 1 ,
The point of the post was not to argue but to ask a question,
The costs of ceramic balls have come down and the costs of plastic balls are cheaper
As with everything i have put up it must be cheap to do and have great effect,
Ask Tarzan, and a few other forum members, you don’t have to pay £20 for a ceramic ball, when you can buy 5 £6 or plastic ones at 49p,
Centering Pins
Ceramic Cutting Materials
Cutting Ceramics
Cutting Materials
Cyrol Bearing Rollers
Drawing Tools
Forming Applications
High-performance Cutting Tools
Indexable Inserts
Inserts
Machining"
it is cost affective to make these out of ceramic and once the dies have been made you can make as many aas you need most of the above are not a bearing ball

cats squirrel
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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by cats squirrel » 26 Jul 2017 12:56

your efforts in this experiment are to be commended, although I can't agree with all your conclusions.

For the record, I have been using silicon nitride balls for nearly nine years without issue. I gave one to friend, and he reports no issues. However, I don't use a Michell turntable, I have one, but it has languished in a garage for over ten years, as it did not give me what I wanted. The turntables I use have platters that weigh about 4kg.

For the record, the silicon nitride balls are priced at about 60p each (<$1) on ebay, at present, so about 6p per year! :D

But I must confess that I used the nitride balls because I needed a non-magnetic one, as I am using a ferrofluid for lubrication, and with a magnetic ball, the spindle was magnetized as well! Not good when using MC's. :(

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 26 Jul 2017 15:51

it was a well known reviewer that has told me the ceramic balls crack , it is not my assumption, i know the ball will wear but not to damage any part of the bearing,
grinding disks are made of ceramic,if it brakes it will distroy the bearing,
i am not telling any one to rush out an buy thease balls infact i have given them away ,it is the feedback i have had and the sound from my own michell TT with the use of every ball mentioned, the new ceramic balls accept the aluminium oxide are grade 5
the older ones ie may be yours will be the grade as the aluminium oxide grade25
which i std, and not as precission as the newer ones on offer on eBay,the only one you seem not to get in a grade5 high precission is the Ceramic Aluminium Oxide Al2O3 only grade 25 in the uk , the grade10 work out at £8 each imported, 4.87 euro plus post of 18euro plus fees of 5.8%
so the ball you have is an older version,
the plastic balls are rounder and a higher precission then the ceramic ball, may be that is why there is a diffrence in sound ,Transrotor use a magnetic bearing entirly diffrent, the owner was an apprentice of John Michells making copy gyros and other stuff , he now produces the ZET series of TT,of his own design and test's by ear for any noise,
so i am just testing how to keep away from the problem of point loading ,
michell say the ball does not rotate,it is only on one point contact due to the pressure from the weight of the platter which in turn point loads the bearing on top of the steel shaft,i also think you would need bloody good eyes to see any micro cracks in the ceramic ball,it self,but they are their,
so as the single point load is only in one point it Must stress that part of the ball out as per industry advice
Fused Ceramic
balls range in colour from almost white to a creamy yellow colour. The material is very harder, but less tough than either silicon nitride or alumina. Structurally the balls perform well, but are prone to localised surface damage, which ultimtly promotes failure. Silicon Nitride
Combining hardness and toughness with low mass,


their seems no problems now using a magnetic bearing for a TT as on some high end turntables ,
but i will contiune to try and find an alternative to these
i have considered adding a ptfe thrust disk to the top of the michell bearing simalar to the delrin one for the technics sl tt

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 27 Jul 2017 20:54

Hi Their , i have placed a PTFE pad ontop of the spondle which is working great ,
i also have a web site i have just found about ceramic bearings
http://www.smbbearings.com/productpdfs/ ... -guide.pdf

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by jazzwessem » 18 Nov 2017 16:43

gwernaffield wrote:Transrotor use a magnetic bearing entirly diffrent, the owner was an apprentice of John Michells making copy gyros and other stuff
Ehhhh???? Ohhhhhh? Jürgen Räke, owner of Transrotor sold in the 80's the Michell Gyrodec Mk2 in Germany branded as Transrotor Rotary. It was not a 'copy' of a Gyrodec, nor did it use a different bearing. It is a 'British made' Michell Gyrodec with the Pabst AC motor, with another name....How do I know? I own one. Gr. Roel

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by Giovanni68 » 03 Dec 2017 12:21

Sorry if I use your thread to just ask but where could I find, in EU, a ball bearing for my Gyro and which kind of lube could I use without to spend the ridiculous money for the dedicated one to give new life to the Gyro MK1 I bought used a year ago?

Would like to give it new life by xmas so am looking for belt, a set of headshell wires and lube for the bearing.

Thank you


Giovanni

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by gwernaffield » 19 Feb 2018 23:21

the size of the ball in the main bearing is 7/32 ,i use mobil 1 0-40w fully synthetic
oil
hope this helps
peter

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by blakep » 20 Feb 2018 04:43

gwernaffield wrote:the size of the ball in the main bearing is 7/32 ,i use mobil 1 0-40w fully synthetic
oil
hope this helps
peter
Ball in a Mk 1 with the original non-inverted bearing is larger, either 1/4" or 9/32" (1/4" would be my guess).

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by watchnerd » 28 Feb 2018 10:10

What's a bearing ball?

Is my inverted bearing supposed to have some kind of ball inside?

If I separate the two halves of the bearing, I don't find any ball....

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by blakep » 28 Feb 2018 17:00

watchnerd wrote:What's a bearing ball?

Is my inverted bearing supposed to have some kind of ball inside?

If I separate the two halves of the bearing, I don't find any ball....
Your ball is very likely adhering to a film of oil in the cavity which it fits into in the upper half of the inverted bearing. If you give it a shake it will probably come out. In the worst case scenario you could direct a magnetic screwdriver into that cylinder/cavity which will attract the ball but be very careful not to scrape or scratch the inside of the bearing housing.

Make sure that you replenish the bearing with any oil (or do a complete oil change) lost in this process when you put it back together.

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Re: What bearing ball do you have in your gyro/orbe

Post by watchnerd » 05 Mar 2018 00:14

gwernaffield wrote:Hi Their , i have placed a PTFE pad ontop of the spondle which is working great ,
i also have a web site i have just found about ceramic bearings
http://www.smbbearings.com/productpdfs/ ... -guide.pdf
Sorry, I'm confused...are you recommending PTFE, Torlon, Delrin, Silicon Nitride, or Zirconia bearings now?

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