Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

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DSJR
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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by DSJR » 22 Jan 2018 14:05

You think that's loud, just get a nice Lab 80 (mk2 preferably) to hear what a 'real-man's' auto mechanism sounds like :lol: There are a few vids on YouTube which may give some of the flavour...

(Please excuse my Aspergic tendencies - people like me don't/can't 'read' subtle humour or irony very well off the page...)

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 24 Jan 2018 03:48

A70BBen wrote:My uncle bought a Jaguar XJ6 when they were brand new. Sleek, comfortable, rode and handled like a fine saloon should. He always suspected, though, that the air conditioner wasn't working. Like London, San Francisco is a place where air conditioning is normally not necessary, so when he reported his suspicion to the dealer, it was always cool and he accepted the explanation that "it's working, but it's not as powerful a design as in an American car. But we added a squirt of Freon to it anyway."

His next car, some years later, was not a Jaguar. He kept the XJ6, though, because he liked its comfortable interior and warm ambience more than the Bavarian marque he bought next (and that car turned out to be a reliability migraine anyway). The German car, with air conditioning almost as powerful as in the Dodge his wife used, was driven to his country home in summer. Finally he gave the Jaguar to his brother, who was planning to replace the Jaguar six-cylinder engine and sluggish Borg-Warner automatic transmission with a Chevrolet 350 ci. V8 and Turbo Hydramatic (there are excellent conversion kits for doing this). When it was all done, the Jaguar was transformed, with more power, a quick-shifting transmission; and with less weight on the front wheels, better handling than ever.

AND THE AIR CONDITIONING WORKED! Turned out it had never worked from brand new because apparently at the factory, something had struck its compressor and knocked a hole in it. The system was thus unable to hold any Freon refrigerant at all. A new GM compressor that came with the new engine was the final "fix."

END OF THREAD DRIFT!
Ha! Ah, that's a great story! I worked at an Esso station with an attached CheckPoint shop in the early '90s, and we had a customer with an XJ6 with the exact conversion you describe.

There were a lot of older British expats in this town back then. At the Esso station, you could see them coming from a mile away: perfectly parted white hair; houndstooth sport jacket; XJ6 Vanden Plas, Rover P6 or 3500/SD1, or an '80s Range Rover. The cars were never serviced at our shop (heavens no), but we were full-service only at the gas pumps, and thus deemed worthy of refuelling them. You can imagine the looks on their faces when the small block XJ6 fired up beside them!

My parents bought a Buick Century brand new in 1976. Emission-control-choked 350 V8,3-speed automatic; a fairly low-end model with manual windows and no A/C; crimson red vinyl interior; crimson red exterior. The car would not back up a hill. It didn't matter if it was cold or warm; if you feathered the accelerator or stomped it; if you drove it around for a day and then put it in reverse; if you took a running start at the hill; nothing. Countless hours at the dealership, first "tuning", and then replacing the carburetor and transmission didn't fix it. Eventually my parents just accepted "it was probably a Friday car" and traded it in on a Mazda. Imagine just "shrugging off" a car that won't back up a hill nowadays.

It's amazing what people used to consider "acceptable" compared to now. I can't even have my AC system serviced without a $150 dye test to see if there's any leaks, and back when your uncle bought his XJ6, the just threw a can of Freon into it in hopes that would help

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 24 Jan 2018 03:49

(Thread drift continues!)

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by A70BBen » 24 Jan 2018 07:15

amagasakii wrote:(Thread drift continues!)
INDEED!

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 31 Jan 2018 04:43

Finally, a little bit of progress this past weekend! Pickup cam, selector lever, friction link, and auto stop link removed. Should I consider replacing the damping foam in the suspension springs with new? It's quite compressed and doesn't seem to damp things at all, based on how long the chassis bounces each time it drops a record.

40259

It looks like someone's used a paintbrush to slop grease all over the chassis anywhere near a linkage. I've cleaned off a bunch already; this stuff was everywhere. It's not yet cement, but it's certainly sticky and very orange.

40260

Close-up of the pickup lever and friction spring. I don't know what the clear "grease" sprinkled on the pickup lever is, but it's as hard as plastic cement.

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Question 1: You can see the path the "dimple" in the friction spring has worn in the grease on the pickup lever. Should I reapply grease or change to light oil?

40283

Question 2: How are the collar (125), friction spring (128), lifting spindle (23), lifting spring (126), and lifting washer (127) held in place? I was hoping to remove and re-damp the lifting spindle, but, as far as I can tell, the end of the lifting spring is tapered to keep everything in place; this seems like something I could easily mess up.

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40281

The underside of the cam post. Unfortunately, things don't look good here. It's hard to see, but there's stress fractures all around the lip of the swaged portion (you might be able to see the largest fracture at the 8 o'clock position).

Question 1: What's the accepted method for epoxying or supergluing the post back in place? Do I rest the chassis upside down on its post, then apply glue to this side?

Question 2: The pin that connects to the cycle cam on the top side rides along the bottom edge of that cut-out in the chassis. That edge is quite nicked up. Should I file it down to smooth it out or just re-grease it?

40262

Thanks to Dualcan for the design of the world's cheapest repair jig. :)

40263

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by A70BBen » 31 Jan 2018 05:57

> Question 1: You can see the path the "dimple" in the friction spring
> has worn in the grease on the pickup lever. Should I reapply grease
> or change to light oil?

Grease it. That is not a typical trouble spot, in my experience.



> Question 2: How are the collar (125), friction spring (128), lifting
> spindle (23), lifting spring (126), and lifting washer (127) held in
> place? I was hoping to remove and re-damp the lifting spindle, but,
> as far as I can tell, the end of the lifting spring is tapered to
> keep everything in place; this seems like something I could easily
> mess up.

As you guessed, that assemblage is held by the tapered end of the
lifting spring. I had to remove it from my "project" AT6 because
some doofus had swapped in a lifting shaft (23) that lacked the
platform on top of it, so I had to replace it with a correct one;
with care (which goes without saying because all these parts are made
of Unobtainum-new since Garrard is no longer with us) it all went
fine.




> The underside of the cam post. Unfortunately, things don't look good
> here. It's hard to see, but there's stress fractures all around the
> lip of the swaged portion (you might be able to see the largest
> fracture at the 8 o'clock position).

> Question 1: What's the accepted method for epoxying or supergluing
> the post back in place? Do I rest the chassis upside down on its
> post, then apply glue to this side?

That's as good a way as any. Degrease the area and use an epoxy that
sets hard, not pliable as some do. You will have one chance to get it
in there straight, then let it cure for the full specified time.


> Question 2: The pin that connects to the cycle cam on the top side
> rides along the bottom edge of that cut-out in the chassis. That
> edge is quite nicked up. Should I file it down to smooth it out or
> just re-grease it?

You won't do any harm by filing it but in use it doesn't really scrape
agains that rough edge anyway.



The damping foam is undoubtedly deteriorated by now. Replace it. You
probably have some suitable foam around someplace, used to package stuff
for shipment.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 01 Feb 2018 05:50

A70BBen wrote:> […] the lifting spring is tapered to
> keep everything in place; this seems like something I could easily
> mess up.

As you guessed, that assemblage is held by the tapered end of the
lifting spring. I had to remove it from my "project" AT6 because
some doofus had swapped in a lifting shaft (23) that lacked the
platform on top of it, so I had to replace it with a correct one;
with care (which goes without saying because all these parts are made
of Unobtainum-new since Garrard is no longer with us) it all went
fine.
Is the lifting platform mated to the lifting shaft? If so, it sounds like I'd have to undo the lifting spring underneath, flip the deck upright, remove the tonearm, then pull the platform and shaft up from the top.

What is the process for removing and reinstalling the spring? I assume I should just hold onto it and then lever the tapered end over the bulge at the end. Reinstalling should be easier; just press the tapered end over the whole thing and it should snap back into place.

Is it better if I just try and apply some damping fluid top and bottom?
A70BBen wrote:> Question 1: What's the accepted method for epoxying or supergluing
> the post back in place? Do I rest the chassis upside down on its
> post, then apply glue to this side?

That's as good a way as any. Degrease the area and use an epoxy that
sets hard, not pliable as some do. You will have one chance to get it
in there straight, then let it cure for the full specified time.
I think this is what I'll do then. I can't see the screwdriver trick working here.
A70BBen wrote:>The damping foam is undoubtedly deteriorated by now. Replace it. You
probably have some suitable foam around someplace, used to package stuff
for shipment.
My brother just reupholstered his living room chairs. Packaging foam be damned, I'm going to put in memory foam!

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by A70BBen » 01 Feb 2018 16:13

The lifting platform on the SL65B differs from the AT6 due to the cueing. You are correct about removing the lifting spring
, but as to cue damping, you actually can force dabs of damping fluid into where it goes, and that might be enough. That series never had really good damping in the cue system anyway. I actually prefer the manual cueing on the SL65...you lower the arm at the rate you desire by moving the cue lever faster or slower.

Upholstery foam should be OK. I know a guy who used foam from a couch left by the side of the road with a FREE sign on it.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 05 Feb 2018 08:54

A70BBen wrote:[…] you actually can force dabs of damping fluid into where it goes, and that might be enough. That series never had really good damping in the cue system anyway. I actually prefer the manual cueing on the SL65...you lower the arm at the rate you desire by moving the cue lever faster or slower.
I think I might try this. I poked around at the mechanism again this afternoon and I think I can figure out how to get some damping fluid onto it-- don't think I'll bother trying the 500,000 cSt stuff.

It wouldn't bother me so much, but the automatic mechanism seems to rely on the damping, as it was dropping like a rock before I disassembled it.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 05 Feb 2018 09:25

A70BBen wrote:> Question 1: What's the accepted method for epoxying or supergluing
> the post back in place? Do I rest the chassis upside down on its
> post, then apply glue to this side?

That's as good a way as any. Degrease the area and use an epoxy that
sets hard, not pliable as some do. You will have one chance to get it
in there straight, then let it cure for the full specified time.
Any advice truing up the post before I epoxy it?

I did a dry run this afternoon. For my first attempt, I tried to balance the deck on top of a long bolt centred on the post, but it was far too wobbly.

I went out and bought a mending plate and some fender washers, clamped the mending plate to the chassis at the back, stacked some washers under the cam post, clamped the other end of the mending plate to the front end of the chassis, and then tried to get a "feel" for where the cam post wanted to sit naturally.

Big surprise, the cam post felt perfectly at home as soon as I clamped it down so it wouldn't wobble any more.

My first thought is to put the cam back on to give some weight to the post when the chassis is hanging upside down and then clamp.

Second, do the clamping from the top so the post is sitting where it naturally would, then flip it over and epoxy.

Third, "tack" the post in place from the top with hot glue, then clamp while upside down.

Finally, just assume I'm over-thinking things and just wing it.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by DSJR » 05 Feb 2018 19:55

My 'idea' was to fit the cam in place and fix the c-clip. Make some cardboard spacers to support the cam equidistant/evenly from the deck plate all round and 'loading' up against the c clip so it is level but can't move, turn deck upside down again and deal with the rivet. Could this work? As long as the cam is pretty level, I don't think it needs to be micron accuracy. The O rong around the bottom of the platter 'hub' under the geared part should then keep everything quieter when cycling.

Sorry if it doesn't work for you.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by Spinner45 » 05 Feb 2018 21:21

Careful removal of the cycle cam shaft by Dremel griding, then drilling and tapping a screw hole through the shaft, using a washer and bolt, would be my way of saving the unit.
Glues or epoxys in that situation don't really hold for long.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 07 Feb 2018 04:45

DSJR wrote:My 'idea' was to fit the cam in place and fix the c-clip. Make some cardboard spacers to support the cam equidistant/evenly from the deck plate all round and 'loading' up against the c clip so it is level but can't move, turn deck upside down again and deal with the rivet. Could this work? As long as the cam is pretty level, I don't think it needs to be micron accuracy. The O rong around the bottom of the platter 'hub' under the geared part should then keep everything quieter when cycling.

Sorry if it doesn't work for you.
This is an interesting idea. I might use some cedar shims (rather than cardboard) under the cam and see if this will work.

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by amagasakii » 07 Feb 2018 05:01

Spinner45 wrote:Careful removal of the cycle cam shaft by Dremel griding, then drilling and tapping a screw hole through the shaft, using a washer and bolt, would be my way of saving the unit.
Glues or epoxys in that situation don't really hold for long.
I am worried about using epoxy or glue. I'm old enough that I remember this Krazy Glue ad. I'm also old enough that I've actually used Krazy Glue. I've witnessed first-hand its inability to stick plastic to plastic.

I must admit, I did try and use hot glue the cam post in hopes to hold it in place. You can probably guess how well that worked. :)

I'm never going to restore this deck to factory specs; I simply don't have the skills or equipment to drill and tap a true hole into the cam post. Maybe I could split the difference and tap it then shim it where it's out?

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Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Post by Spinner45 » 07 Feb 2018 05:30

amagasakii wrote:
Spinner45 wrote:Careful removal of the cycle cam shaft by Dremel griding, then drilling and tapping a screw hole through the shaft, using a washer and bolt, would be my way of saving the unit.
Glues or epoxys in that situation don't really hold for long.
I am worried about using epoxy or glue. I'm old enough that I remember this Krazy Glue ad. I'm also old enough that I've actually used Krazy Glue. I've witnessed first-hand its inability to stick plastic to plastic.

I must admit, I did try and use hot glue the cam post in hopes to hold it in place. You can probably guess how well that worked. :)

I'm never going to restore this deck to factory specs; I simply don't have the skills or equipment to drill and tap a true hole into the cam post. Maybe I could split the difference and tap it then shim it where it's out?
Playing around with various ideas other than a solid metal-to-metal contact as I suggested will simply waste time and energy.
The stresses imposed on the cycle cam in operation require nothing but a solid anchoring.
The rotating cam follower roller alone would knock a glued up mess loose.