Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

the jewel in the crown
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T68
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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 11 Sep 2019 17:00

True that. That cyclic whum-whum-whum noise was a bit too much for my ears.
But now the lower and more even noise is much less disturbing.
I'll play it like this for a while and then decide whether to refurbish the idler wheel or not.

T68
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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 16 Sep 2019 19:21

Well, couldn't help myself when I found modelling clay for four bucks the other day. So I turned five years old again and played a little with the Zero to see if dampening the platter would work. Some pics:
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The result?
The ring when tapping the bottom platter is almost gone.
Maybe placebo but I think the noise between tracks is lower. Unfortunately I messed up with my before/after recording on the phone so I cannot compare.

Anyhoo, listening to Kind of Blue as I write this, and it sounds really good! Speed seems stable and no increase in bearing noise.

So I think the clay will stay. If not just only for seeing the cheerful colors next time I'm gonna work on it :mrgreen:

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 18 Sep 2019 12:21

Well, after listening a bit more I've decided that there's still to much cyclic idler rumble going on. It's just not circular and it wobbles in the horizontal plane too. My own attempts to sand the idler is failing. To hard to get it spinning straight on my drill.
So I've decided to bite the bullet and send it off for restoration.
Hopefully this will unleash the full force of this fantastic British engineering marvel in a week or two.

So for now, during this temporary Brexit, I have to turn to Germany and put the cleaner,
smother and probably better sounding (?) - BUT LESS COOL &FUN - Dual 601 back into operation.

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 18 Sep 2019 15:11

Speaking of Garrard idlers: are there wheels from other models that will fit on the Zero100? For example idlers for the sp25? Found a croatian company which makes new, very nicely looking idlers for that model. Would be sweet if the would fit the zero if I need new ones down the line.

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by aardvarkash10 » 19 Sep 2019 09:51

Here's the cross-reference listing from Gary at Voice of Music.

I'm not sure about your Croatian supplier, but Gary's work is excellent and honest. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend getting your idler rebuilt by him.

T68
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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 19 Sep 2019 11:37

Yes, heard of Gary's great work. But unfortunately buying from the US brings some hefty shipping and customs and import fees here in Sweden. I Like finding suppliers within the EU.

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 19 Sep 2019 18:53

Zero 2000 and models up to the lab 80 as well as the 301/401 apart, I believe all Garrards starting with the autoslim design and SL75/95 chassis types, all used basically the same idler until the Unimech designs came along. It was usually a large sintered inner piece, but I have seen a few including my first AP76 in 1972, with a cast inner hub with sintered sleeve that looked rather like the BSR type, albeit a different size to the BSR.

Have a good look on eBay for a suitable idler. The Lab 80 and earlier type as well as the 301/401 look so different, you'll not confuse them...

Here's one of the 'BSR-esque' type - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-IDLE ... SwTzVcueox

Check part number first though, just in case.

Here's the best known type but the bracket will need moving on -https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Idler-wheel- ... SwhlZYsedD

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 21 Sep 2019 12:06

Well with the Zero out of commission waiting for a restored idler, this ol' girl does good service as a backup.

She reminds me what silence between tracks (not) sounds like :-).
Hope a revived idler on the Zero comes close to this.
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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 21 Sep 2019 13:29

Should do, but reviews of new Zero 100's at the time weren't hugely positive where drive noises and general rumbles are concerned. The SB models *when new* were judged to be an order of magnitude better although today, although I'd suggest that this depends on the state of the rotor (extra discs glued back on or original) and especially the state of the two softer grommets used in the motor suspension. Dual did a lot of work on the 'frequency(ies)' of the counterweight decoupling to minimise drive noises transmitted to the stylus and I'm wondering if Garrard did the same (I'm remembering posts by an Oxfordshire gent on Audiosciencereview, who's discipline was vibration management I think).

My own Zero 100 came to me totally glued up and in need of serious attention, but in fairness now, it's a very quiet runner and the freshly service mechanism is smooth on tonearm lifting with no jerking as many have these days (the first sign of lube hardening).



P.S. To 'get' what the hell I'm banging on about, maybe you need to play records on say, a Thorens TD150 or 160. Pretty much NO motor noise/harmonics comes to the stylus and whatever you may think of the rest of it, a good working example is silent in the bass apart from basic vinyl noises. I miss the TD125 I had for a couple of years and regret not buying it back when I had the chance (financial as always) and I seem to be the repository of gifted Duals and Lenco's instead :D

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 21 Sep 2019 16:04

It will be interesting to hear the effect of the new idler wheel. I don't expect it to be as silent as the belt drive 601. But hopefully the rumble will be at levels that won't be as disturbing any more.
If so it will be hard to decide whether the Dual or Garrard earns the position in the cabinet.
Maybe have to let them take turns.

...then if I get that Dual 701...

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 22 Sep 2019 11:32

I have to rotate the decks I have around in the workroom. The Dual 1019 I was given stayed the longest although there's still some 'drone' in quiet passages and the Garrard AP76/AT120E and 86SB/ADC XLM III amaze me time after time for their basically tidy clear sound when I think it should be total shite as the arms and headshells are so flimsy, especially the 86SB one.

I expect more from the Zero 100 as the engineering was slightly tighter, but again, a headshell mounted in a ball race and a rattly-feeling outrigger arm (it's gravity loaded so only upset by handling), doesn't inspire sonic competence. I love watching it work though.

The deck I use the least is the 1214 plus 1216 cast platter I totally rebuilt from a transit damaged scrap deck I was given. Funny this, as 701 apart, it's the best 'sounding' and quietest through the stylus of the whole damned lot of 'em! I usually get the thing down at Chrismas so I can wallow in the Christmas singles of my late 50's infancy (Beverley Sisters indeed :oops: ) - headphones only of course to prevent reprisals :lol: It'll track the Shure V15 III at 1g just fine after tweaking the under-deck bias correction but here, it's tracking a Rega Carbon at 1.8g

[album]39048[/album]

Here's the Zero testing out a phono stage I cobbled together - In an attempt to regain a little credibility, this deck's playing a mint copy of The Yes Album :D

41752

T68
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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 03 Oct 2019 13:16

While patiently waiting for restored idler wheel to get back from shop I decided that I might as well use the time for some fun ...as in cleaning and relubricate the platter bearing.

I haven't noticed any alarming noise or other issues. But there was a lot of black goo on top of the bearing assembly (disintegrated o-ring probably), that I was a bit worried would find its way into the race.

Job done after a couple of hours and some bad language! Man, that's a lot of disassembly (bearing support, cam wheel, sliding parts, trip rod and so on) to get to the bearing.
I guess serviceability wasn't on top of Garrard engineers priorities :)

Well at least I got to learn more about how the zero is put together ...and that there is a washer that goes between the top of the camwheel and the chassi. I had one of those "everything put back together, then you flip the deck over and something falls out"-moment with that little sucker :-).

Anyhoo, cleaned and de-goo:ed the bearing parts. For lubrication I tried Super Lube.
Yes, I know the manual calls for sewing machine oil. But after reading good things about Super Lube I decided to give it a try.
Feels like it will stay in place better and maybe offer more dampening.
Result?
Well since I don't have an idler I can't play it. But hand turning the platter I can no longer hear anything from the bearing. Was a faint noise there before. So some improvement I believe.
Maybe more important: I could check that I hadn't messed any automatic functions up. Phew! :-).

Some pics:

Bearing support with bearing and lots of black goo.
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Bearing before cleaning
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The order of things
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Cleaned parts in assembly order
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Now if that idler wheel only could get here...

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by 62vauxhall » 06 Oct 2019 23:01

At least the steel balls are contained in the race.

After doing a couple of Z100’s I got hold of an Elac 10. The bearing assemblies looked similar but inverting that of the Elac - balls go bye-bye.

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 09 Oct 2019 14:35

Looks great :D

I made a bit of an issue regarding Dual lubes as mixing them can play havoc with rapid sludge as the chemicals react - and Dual mechs are rather finer and more easily broken (low noise plastic cam teeth for example).

Garrard mechs are much more sturdy and as long as old grease is removed first, no harm in Superlube whatsoever. The main bearing was pretty close tolerance on the Zero's onwards, so maybe the recommendation of chainsaw oil still stands here - more clingy and sinter-sleeve-safe I think. But Superlube in the ball race should be fine as long as the balls can roll and not slide on the thrust washers (sliding can cause 'flats' on the balls I gather).

The pawls on the main cam (plastic and metal on these?) shouldn't be lubed I still maintain even if that's what Garrard did originally. Any drag here will mess up low tracking force pickups at end of side (I have distinct memories of my M75-ED in the first AP76 dragging the stylus out of line at side end as the stylus tried to pull the arm over - not an issue on the current later issue AP76 86SB or Zero 100 nor the late 95B I once had and would have liked to have kept).

Suitably O ringed on the bottom of the platter hub, these mechs can be very smooth and quiet in operation. Make sure the washer and sliding plate (#186 and I think #190 in the Xero 100 service manual here) are smooth in their operation, otherwise the auto lift will be excessively jerky. I suspect Superlube will be perfect for this once the old stuff is fully removed :)


It's easy to become very fond of these machines, isn't it :oops: I've had the Dual 601 down for a while but not used it. On the other hand, I love watching the Zero 100 work and with the VMS10E II i use in it, the sound is very pleasant indeed - I don't expect much so am delighted when it actually 'sounds' very enjoyable to me.

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Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 16 Oct 2019 22:25

Well, still waiting for that idler wheel. God thing I got a new toy to tinker with. A B52 just "landed" in the house :-). Weird creature this, with a vertical idler!
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