If it ain't broke don't fix it?

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hawkster27
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If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by hawkster27 » 20 Jan 2018 19:38

I am the original owner of a Denon DP-52F, and it still works great. But, I keep reading about the need to have a complete replacement of the capacitors done before it's "too late." But, I'm reluctant to turn this over to even a reputable repair shop when the 'table is exhibiting no issues. What say you?

Spinner45
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by Spinner45 » 20 Jan 2018 20:41

The answers are all over the map about "recapping".
Nevertheless, time, age, causes some capacitors to drift out of tolerence, become "leaky" (not really visible leaks) or even short out.
Slight changes in electronic behavior, even unnoticeable ones, can start to happen.
Those Denons with the "electronic tonearm" systems are in my opinion, over-bloated, over-designed Rube Goldberg messes just waiting to fail.

But of course that's my personal opinion, I just think that elegant simplicity is the better way to play a record.

hawkster27
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by hawkster27 » 20 Jan 2018 21:16

Ha! I don't entirely disagree Spinner. But after 34 years, I guess "waiting to fail" is relative. So I'm thinking I'll stick with the Denon until it breaks and then go with an SL-1200.

kreazyV8wuppo
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by kreazyV8wuppo » 20 Mar 2018 23:35

I couldend agree more.
but to prevent serious damadge maybe you could consider a MOT?
like a checkover?
get a specialist to look at it and do some tests.
if he says , no need to fix it, well, at least you know its safe to play.
you don't need to fix it if it issent broke, but like the brake's on your car, you don't want to end up with metal on metal and almost no brake capacity left trying to emergency brake at a school crossing.
you change the brakepads before they run out.

same goe's for your Denon..maybe not broke, but soem things might be at or past there .....

sorry for my typo's im Dutch so not 100% proficiant in english.

good luck with your machine, hope it works out oke for you.

regards Ton

mythrenegade
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by mythrenegade » 21 Mar 2018 03:08

When it quits, please please ship it to me. I’d love it.

lenjack
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by lenjack » 22 May 2018 02:08

Mine "broke" recently. Electronic tracking force/antiskate stopped working. I was planning to clean the pot, but didn't get around to it. Zero'd the dial, and the damping pot as well. Adjusted tracking force with counterweight only, and Shure balance gauge. Shure m97Xe cart with brush down supplies perfect antiskate. Tracks original Telarc 1812 at 1.25g, perfectly.

Other table functions are perfect.

Spinner45
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by Spinner45 » 22 May 2018 03:11

lenjack wrote:Mine "broke" recently. Electronic tracking force/antiskate stopped working. I was planning to clean the pot, but didn't get around to it. Zero'd the dial, and the damping pot as well. Adjusted tracking force with counterweight only, and Shure balance gauge. Shure m97Xe cart with brush down supplies perfect antiskate. Tracks original Telarc 1812 at 1.25g, perfectly.

Other table functions are perfect.
This is why I personally don't like those over-bloated electronic machines.
Seen it a dozen times already.
I've started calling them Demons, not Denons. :twisted:

EdAInWestOC
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by EdAInWestOC » 30 May 2018 15:06

When it comes to recapping the table there isn't a question. Electrolytic caps have a finite lifespan and they will fall out of spec after that life span has been exceeded.

What happens when the caps are out of spec depends on the circuit and how much tolerance the electronics have for the out of spec caps. The easy answer is ask yourself if you want a reliable turntable. If your Denon turntable is over 20 years old and you are using it regularly, you need to recap it if you want to keep on having that table running well.

Don't bother looking at the caps because that will tell you nothing. If you are starting to have intermittent problems and you can't figure out the culprit its time for a recapping.

You can keep on using the table but that will eventually end up in a table that won't work and maybe cannot be fixed. I agree with the other poster who called the Denons a Rube Goldberg type machine. They are not simple devices and the ageing caps don't Help anything.

An old Denon turntable (20+ years old) demands that you completely recap the table and take care of all of the bearings and pots. Otherwise it will not be reliable or if it is reliable it won't be for long.

Ed

John Paul
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by John Paul » 14 Jun 2018 17:09

At some point all electrolytic capacitors will fail. This is not a matter of opinion, it is just a basic fact. The only real question is if additional damage will be done to the deck when this happens. I think the real answer to that question is "maybe". A cap could just drift out of spec and do something noticeable and allow for a repair at that point with no real harm done. On the other hand perhaps it could allow for excess voltage or current to go through a sensitive custom chip and burn it out. Perhaps a cap leaks and the acid that comes out eats up traces that make repair much more difficult.

If you really wanted to get rid of the deck I don't think you would have bothered asking this question. If you don't want to pay someone else to do it (and honestly any electronic repair person should have no problem with this, a specialist is not needed) it is not hard to train yourself on YouTube and do it yourself at a very low cost. These old electronics are pretty easy with tons of room and easy to melt lead-tin solder.

As for the people who dump on Denon for having what they call overly complex design I guess that is a matter of perspective. If you know nothing about electronics then I assume that anything more than basic speed controller is too complex. Having spent enough time to get a working knowledge of how the electronic work on my own deck I actually came to the conclusion that I was amazed by the simplicity of the controls. I don't have a strong electronics background and with the Help of a service manual I found the circuits not too hard to understand.

Spinner45
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by Spinner45 » 14 Jun 2018 17:48

John Paul wrote: As for the people who dump on Denon for having what they call overly complex design I guess that is a matter of perspective. If you know nothing about electronics then I assume that anything more than basic speed controller is too complex.
I assume you meant me.
With 45+ years of experience in servicing, I'd safely state that I know enough to make statements with merit.

John Paul
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by John Paul » 14 Jun 2018 18:29

Spinner45 wrote:
John Paul wrote: As for the people who dump on Denon for having what they call overly complex design I guess that is a matter of perspective. If you know nothing about electronics then I assume that anything more than basic speed controller is too complex.
I assume you meant me.
With 45+ years of experience in servicing, I'd safely state that I know enough to make statements with merit.
Actually I meant in general as it seems to be a very common sentiment I have seen posted quite a bit. I don't know you so I would not posit any opinion on what you do or do not know. There is an argument for and against using mechanical systems vs. electronics. There is an argument for and against including certain features in a piece of equipment. I was not trying to speak to either of those things. The point that I was attempting to make is that as far as electronic control systems go the design of these old Denon turntables are actually elegantly simple. To some people though that are much more comfortable and adept at working with mechanical systems it may not seem that way. There is nothing wrong with that. That may make any electronic control system too complex to them, but that does not mean that all electronic control systems are complex. There is an amazing amount of effort that has been put into materials and mechanical systems to optimize playing records that some may find to be just as complex as what Denon did electronically. So again I say it is a matter of perspective.

cats squirrel
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by cats squirrel » 14 Jun 2018 18:42

my car runs just fine, without changing the oil...

Spinner45
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by Spinner45 » 14 Jun 2018 19:49

John Paul wrote: There is an argument for and against using mechanical systems vs. electronics. There is an argument for and against including certain features in a piece of equipment. I was not trying to speak to either of those things. The point that I was attempting to make is that as far as electronic control systems go the design of these old Denon turntables are actually elegantly simple.
There's always an argument, usually based on bias/preferences.
Nevertheless, simplicity in design definitely proves superior as far as reliability is concerned.

As for the "elegantly simple" statement, that's not true, if you knew the actual design and workings of those electronically controlled tonearms.
Look at a schematic, say, of the DP59L, the specific area concerning tonearm movement, tracking, damping, and then tell me that's "simple".
I've serviced them, and trust me, it's not some simple procedure to perform.
Not when you need a hoarde of test equipment to get operation right and according to spec.

EdAInWestOC
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by EdAInWestOC » 15 Jun 2018 14:32

I owned and still own a Denon turntable since I bought it new in 1983. I love that turntable but the argument about Denon turntables is that Denon created a sophisticated servo speed control system for its turntables. They added more convenience features to some models but in the end Denon turntables have more things to go wrong than others.

If you are going to choose a vintage turntable I would not advise someone to get an old Denon. Its not because I dislike Denon products. To the contrary, I very much admire their products.

You have to face facts and Denon turntables require service on their electronics and on their bearings if you are going to use a vintage Denon on a regular basis. A Denon turntable is a beautiful design and it is a very good direct drive system but its not a simple product that will run trouble free without intervention.

Before you can buy and use a vintage Denon, you should be aware of what you are getting into. There are other tables that are much simpler and easier to get working well.

For instance, a vintage Thorens is a better bet than a vintage Denon. They make a simpler design with less things to go wrong.

Ed

Dimal
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Re: If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Post by Dimal » 20 Jun 2018 06:35

Won't be getting rid of my beautiful Denon TT any time soon.
And, complexity of electronic design and implementation can be interpreted differently between electronic tech's/engineers, depending on one's personal training, qualifications and experience. It is neither a pro or con situation; complexity means different things to different people... :-)

Mal.

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