how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

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Sequoia225
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how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Sequoia225 » 09 Nov 2018 18:05

I have my 1200 78 spd modded by KAB as I discussed here a few months back, and he sold me a generic 78 stylus for my Stanton 500 cart.
Im setting it up now. But, the stylus says tracking force is 3-7 grams.
Ive zeroed it out, but this only goes to 3.5 on the counter weight of the 1200.

So how do I deal with heavier tracking weights than 3.5g?
Sorry if this is more obvious than I am seeing.

Thanks for any insight!

Pauw
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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Pauw » 09 Nov 2018 19:28

Some people add a small weight to the headshell to get towards the correct tracking weight. :D

bernard1
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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by bernard1 » 09 Nov 2018 20:57

Add a weight on the headshell (coin, for instance), and use an electronic scale. Most of them, though, are limited to 5g max.

Spinner45
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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Spinner45 » 09 Nov 2018 21:18

Sequoia225 wrote:
09 Nov 2018 18:05
I have my 1200 78 spd modded by KAB as I discussed here a few months back, and he sold me a generic 78 stylus for my Stanton 500 cart.
Im setting it up now. But, the stylus says tracking force is 3-7 grams.
Ive zeroed it out, but this only goes to 3.5 on the counter weight of the 1200.

So how do I deal with heavier tracking weights than 3.5g?
Sorry if this is more obvious than I am seeing.

Thanks for any insight!

After the 3.5 there's the "0", right?, that's 4, and so on...

smee4
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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by smee4 » 18 Dec 2018 23:42

bernard1 wrote:
09 Nov 2018 20:57
Add a weight on the headshell (coin, for instance), and use an electronic scale. Most of them, though, are limited to 5g max.
Yes. Weigh the coin - say, 3 grams. Set the tracking force to 4 grams on the scale, then add the coin directly over the stylus on the headshell. Now you're tracking at 7 grams.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by FrankLM » 27 Dec 2018 15:44

3.5 to 7 grams. That is a reference to allow different applications.
ie: Not less than 3.5 grams (Skating) or more importantly not more than 7 grams. (Overloading the stylus)
The suggestion of going past the dial setting might work. Depends on your tonearm. You certainly would not want to override any mechanical stops built into it.
The trick of adding a small weight is helpful if you can't get proper tracking a 3.5 gm. But it adds Mass to your setup.
You also try adjusting the Anti-Skate control a bit. That way you won't have added any mass to the pickup assembly.
You could also adjust the counter weight to give a little more weight without adding mass.
Adding Mass (coin) will affect the lateral tracking force. I'd be inclined to use the 3.5 gram setting and adjust tracking first. then maybe a tweak of the counterweight to cause a slight downward angle of the tonearm. A stylus pressure gauge will be very useful if you adjust the counterweight.
Since 78's only use one size stylus, (3.0 Mil) Brand name or generic shouldn't matter.
Don't use cleaning solutions on your 78's by the way. Just A damp cloth and maybe a small amount of mild detergent solution.
78's don't react well to alcohol solutions.
Go have fun!

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Spinner45 » 27 Dec 2018 16:59

FrankLM wrote:
27 Dec 2018 15:44
3.5 to 7 grams. That is a reference to allow different applications.
ie: Not less than 3.5 grams (Skating) or more importantly not more than 7 grams. (Overloading the stylus)
The suggestion of going past the dial setting might work. Depends on your tonearm. You certainly would not want to override any mechanical stops built into it.
The trick of adding a small weight is helpful if you can't get proper tracking a 3.5 gm. But it adds Mass to your setup.
You also try adjusting the Anti-Skate control a bit. That way you won't have added any mass to the pickup assembly.
You could also adjust the counter weight to give a little more weight without adding mass.
Adding Mass (coin) will affect the lateral tracking force. I'd be inclined to use the 3.5 gram setting and adjust tracking first. then maybe a tweak of the counterweight to cause a slight downward angle of the tonearm. A stylus pressure gauge will be very useful if you adjust the counterweight.
Since 78's only use one size stylus, (3.0 Mil) Brand name or generic shouldn't matter.
Don't use cleaning solutions on your 78's by the way. Just A damp cloth and maybe a small amount of mild detergent solution.
78's don't react well to alcohol solutions.
Go have fun!
In keeping things simple, a 3 gram weight added to the headshell would be the best solution.
Then, counterweight adjustments can be set as appropriate, disregarding any antiskating issue.
I highly doubt that old, worn, mono 78's need crucial antiskate settings.

vanakaru
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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by vanakaru » 27 Dec 2018 17:11

Even brand new 78's have nothing to pick up from the sides of the groove so AS is nothing you should be thinking about, specially at the 7g pressure.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Coffee Phil » 27 Dec 2018 19:02

:P Hi ,

I am having trouble parsing Vanakaru’s post. Most of what we think of as 78s are lateral cut with a wider groove than Lps. As you say the groove is V shaped and the same information resides in each groove.

Some records are vertically cut. Vertical cut records are also refered to “hill and dale” cut. The most common in the US are Edison diamond discs. They are laminated with playing surfaces made of a material similar to Bakelite and wood flour core. These are ~ 1/4” thick. The same stylus used for 78s seems to work well on Dimond discs. Pathe also used the “hill and dale” cut. I believe most Pathe records use a wider groove which was U shaped. I have one Pathe record in my collection. It is 80 RPM, hill and dale cut, and outside start. It is ~14” in diameter, so it just barely fits my turntable with an SME 3009 arm. It plays reasonably well with a 2.7 mil stylus. The material appears to be shellac, as most 78s, and is ~1/8” thick. I read that the approate stylus is ~ 4 mil, but they are very spendy so unless I acquire more of these I’ll stick with the 2.7 mil.

I have not yet seen a 1/4” thick Pathe, but have no trouble believing that they exist. Pathe did a lot of variations such as outside start, inside start, and they may have even made some lateral records.

Phil

wrote:
27 Dec 2018 17:40
vanakaru wrote:
27 Dec 2018 17:11
Even brand new 78's have nothing to pick up from the sides of the groove so AS is nothing you should be thinking about, specially at the 7g pressure.
?

I think you are referring to the fairly rare Pathé vertical cut records. Most 78's are a V groove, but a big one. It's all about side to side mono.

https://obsoletemedia.org/pathe-vertical-cut-record/

I have one of those Pathé records. They're about a quarter inch thick.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Coffee Phil » 28 Dec 2018 00:37

Hi ,

You may be able to play it. If your 78 cartridge is stereo, just use stereo. The channels will be out of phase but you can hear what is on the record. At 78 the pitch will be a bit flat. I don't have good enough absolute pitch to even notice.
Look at the label to see if it is outside start or inside start.

If you like what is on it and want a better signal to noise ratio, we can talk about connecting your cartridge to be vertical responding mono.

Phil
wrote:
27 Dec 2018 19:13
Coffee Phil wrote:
27 Dec 2018 19:02
:P Hi ,

I am having trouble parsing Vanakaru’s post. Most of what we think of as 78s are lateral cut with a wider groove than Lps. As you say the groove is V shaped and the same information resides in each groove.
I actually called them "Hill and dale" and then deleted the phrase. :D

The whole thing fascinated me when I first heard about it. I saved the one record only because it was so weird (really thick). I've never played it and only recently found out it is not a v-groove.

BTW, I think the op is using google translate for his posts. But I could be wrong.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Coffee Phil » 28 Dec 2018 01:18

Hi ,

That should work. There may even exist software to invert one channel and sum the channels.

Phil

wrote:
28 Dec 2018 01:07
Coffee Phil wrote:
28 Dec 2018 00:37
At 78 the pitch will be a bit flat.
Ha! I'm using an AT LP120 USB. The pitch control has a HUGE range. :)

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by AudioFeline » 03 Feb 2019 10:11

Re: adding weights. Once you have proof of concept with blu-taking a coin to the headshell, more elegant solutions could be:
- Using a headshell designed to have an add-on screw-on weight on the top (primarily for the DJ market, I think).
- Using a weight designed to be held in place on a standard headshell by the cartridge mounting screws. Mount this on top of the headshell, mounting it between the headshell and cart will look nicer but upset the angle of the cart to the record.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Bob Dillon » 04 Mar 2019 20:41

Yes, Stanton makes those headshells with different gram (weight) doo-dads that you can drop into holes in the top of the headshell. Worth having, especially if you are running several different carts that are different weights.

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by WOF49 » 23 Mar 2019 15:08

If the cartridge is rated from 3-7 grams and it tracks fine at 3 what is the advantage of going heavier?

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Re: how to set up 78spd stylus for proper tracking force

Post by Bob Dillon » 23 Mar 2019 18:28

WOF49 wrote:
23 Mar 2019 15:08
If the cartridge is rated from 3-7 grams and it tracks fine at 3 what is the advantage of going heavier?
Mainly reduced surface noise. I think about 5-6 grams is ideal, if the cart suspension can handle it.

Regarding tracking forces on acoustic machines. The Victor Orthophonic machines track at about 4 ounces.

The very early 'front mount' machines - think Nipper the dog listening to his masters gramophone - that have the horn connected directly to the reproducer track heavier.

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