Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

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tlscapital
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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by tlscapital » 23 Dec 2017 13:34

KentT wrote:
Spinner45 wrote:45's were not meant to provide "LP" quality.
They were a convenient and casual form of playback for jukeboxes and teenagers.
Wrong. 45 RPM singles also made those songs hits. And good enough for broadcast use. Styrene 45 RPM singles are best to be played on either .3 x .7 elliptical styli or best yet, conical tips of .7 mil.
=D>

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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by eddie edirol » 23 Dec 2017 14:06

Actually 45s from the 50’s and 60’s May generally have lower quality than LP’s but anything from 70s and up are cut louder than the lps, and sound equal to lps depending on the mastering guy of course. It makes sense that they blew off mastering 45s we’ll because of teenagers. But they still used these singles for radio as well.....Of course you can’t compare an original issue 45 to a remastered lp either. I have tons of stereo 45s that were mastered and cut to perfection and rival their lp quality. I seek them out to listen to on my MC cart.

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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by tlscapital » 24 Dec 2017 09:52

Spinner45 wrote:
KentT wrote:
Spinner45 wrote:45's were not meant to provide "LP" quality.
They were a convenient and casual form of playback for jukeboxes and teenagers.
Wrong. 45 RPM singles also made those songs hits. And good enough for broadcast use. Styrene 45 RPM singles are best to be played on either .3 x .7 elliptical styli or best yet, conical tips of .7 mil.
I agree that "hit songs" were pressed into 45's, popular for the younger crowd, convenient, and sturdy.
And also cheap, meaning record companies made a sizeable profit off teens.
But rarely of the same "quality" as LP's.
The companies knew these "hit singles" would likely be played on inexpensive 45 players with poor amplifiers that kids had, and so manufacturing tolerences were not as strict.
On a humorous note; if one is willing to simplify that MONO 45's were poorly manufactured products for teenagers with low discerning ear capability,

One should accept the other caricature that;

STEREO 33rpm LP's definition in sound aimed at elders with hearing aid strolling in malls and elevators dishing poor dynamic with filtered weak bass muzak... LOL !

The truth is far and between. LP's were always costly to produce due to the colored printed covers, not the vinyl itself. Higher-end mastered LP's are something else.

And yes, LP's were/are "expensive" in comparison with the common picture sleeve-less 7". Baring in mind that the profit margin is not the same either.

So the 45's had that budget advantage and became quickly the most appropriate support also for the NON-HIT music productions during the 5T's through the 7T's.

Allowing small budget productions to have their local or even regional hits. It even allowed majors to "jump in a band wagon" trend without too much financial risk.

True; little budget productions can sound cheap. And I am now accustomed to my "ghetto sound" found on some records. Just as all "crate diggers" get to love it.

That is exactly why fanatics like I do favor them 45's. And I do prefer MONO because I can instantly focus on the tune. The rest (prod., arr. & mix.) can wait sometime later.

Totally admitting that some 45's can be edgy on the mastering at times and some pressing qualities are indeed rather Lo-Fi... press on cheap budget low-end plastics.

On that side, few LP's are renowned to have been pressed on "bad" quality plastic (vinyl) where much more 45's have suffer that bad fate. Even some major companies runs had that !

LP's quality standards are different but that does not imply better. Lp's do have a lower volume (less distortion), thiner and cleaner groove (quieter and more detailed).

Mastered and pressed differently they are not aimed to be "enjoyed" at their best the same way or with the same equipment with few "hybrid" exceptions allowing both.

So 45's to be "compared" to LP's do require a conical stylus, as they tend to favor the MC low compliant cartridge and really sound best with loud volume.

And when all that is there, I do prefer the punch and body my original vintage 45's deliver in real and direct comparison with their LP counterparts when that exists.

In the end, LP's might be more "refined" where 45's are more "brute", but one has to accept that it can be a matter of taste and that all that is a matter of music genre as well...

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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by KentT » 15 Mar 2019 02:04

Problem 1: worn or damaged 45 RPM singles. Problem 2: Wrong stylus (.6 or .7 conical best for most 45 RPM singles, some need 1 mil, some unusual 1950's small labels even need 2.7 mil like pre 1955 Sun, Meteor, and pre 1956 Duke). Also remember the 45 RPM 7" single helped make the hit, and they had to be good for on the air, and the jukebox (both made sure of that)

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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by Sunwire » 15 Mar 2019 03:48

If you want to maximize sound quality of 7" 45rpm records, do a special alignment that minimizes tracking error over the area of the record, which is much smaller than the area that must be tracked on a 12" record.

One other factor: Motown records often had distortion in the master tape. There are no undistorted copies of those songs.
I'm not sure of the precise reason, but I think Motown studios was a pretty unsophisticated operation during the years when they recorded their greatest music (the 1960s). The songs, performances and arrangements were fantastic, but I think the studio was pretty primitive (it was all done in a house Berry Gordy bought for $800.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ ... on.497677/

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Re: Vocal Distortion/fuzz on 45"s

Post by tlscapital » 15 Mar 2019 10:44

Sunwire wrote:
15 Mar 2019 03:48
If you want to maximize sound quality of 7" 45rpm records, do a special alignment that minimizes tracking error over the area of the record, which is much smaller than the area that must be tracked on a 12" record.

One other factor: Motown records often had distortion in the master tape. There are no undistorted copies of those songs.
I'm not sure of the precise reason, but I think Motown studios was a pretty unsophisticated operation during the years when they recorded their greatest music (the 1960s). The songs, performances and arrangements were fantastic, but I think the studio was pretty primitive (it was all done in a house Berry Gordy bought for $800.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ ... on.497677/
Alignement with large (0.7) conical stylus is less critical than with other stylus cuts and the right fit for sixties and seventies 7" records. Even though it is less detailed than some other stylus cuts, it allows enough of that and brings a musicality I need and love and that with enough "realism" as well. And it works on both 7" and 12", 33 and 45rpm's. And my Denon DL-102 deals rather good with my few LP's as well, being either MONO or STEREO as it is vertical compliant.

So I have quiete a few of these early Tamla, Motown, Gordy, VIP & Soul 45's and indeed they do tend to saturate on the high frequencies and mostly on the vocals. This was due to the recording condition and their limitation evidently. But it was also the "house" requirement to have that "life" in it. Hence the Gordy label crest 'it's what's in the grooves that count'. Taking the highs beyond the limit of distortion gave them that loud and deep scream in dynamic as a "trademark".
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With vintage soul 45's records it's often the case. And when the masterings were pressed loud, this would give the records the punch it required. Hence back then those records aimed for air-play and most of home amplification where modest valve/tube of the claimed "warm & round" sound that is merely "muffled" to me. This would eliminate a lot of the high frequencies in the signal amplification and those high saturations as well while keeping it all loud and danceable.