Early 70's 45's

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Audiodude
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Early 70's 45's

Post by Audiodude » 24 Jan 2015 21:11

I have a question for everyone and anyone. I am returning to vinyl after about 25 yrs. and have purchased a bunch of garage sale 45's, mostly early 70's. My question is this, are 45's of lesser quality than 12" albums? I have a near pristine Beatles White album and it sounds amazing but the 45's have almost no low end and sound a bit muted overall. Any insight is appreciated.

Vaughn

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by eddie edirol » 25 Jan 2015 01:35

Its not necessarily the 45s in general as it would be the mastering of each song. But all that matters is what you hear and what you like. Also depends on the genre. I have tons of 45s from the 50s 60s and 70s and most of them have great low end.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by Audiodude » 25 Jan 2015 02:03

I think the 45's I have in this lot have been played on a sub-par turntable. They sound kinda like a 2nd or 3rd generation of an 80's mix tape. I played a Tollie 45 of twist and shout and it was so loud I had to lower the volume. I guess I'll keep dusting them off and playing them till I hear something I like.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by vinyl master » 25 Jan 2015 03:40

It depends on the 45's...I have some great 45's from the 70's that sound excellent...Possibly, certain labels were better than others...How they were mastered is another thing, but I own about 8,000+ of them, and am not planning on giving them up any time soon...

Remember, a lot of factors go into the playing of vinyl, from the types of pressings to the quality of speakers to the brand of cartridge used...If you try a different cartridge and you get a different sound, don't automatically assume the pressing is at fault...If you try different cartridges, and each one sounds about the same, then maybe it is the record. Of course, a bad copy of a record does not necessarily mean a bad record...A better copy of the same record may surprise you...With 45's, I've found that not all 45's are great, but not all 45's suck, either...And sometimes you have to make small compromises in order to hear the music you love...

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by Coffee Phil » 25 Jan 2015 04:26

Hi Audiodude,

I'm guessing that as you said 45s may have had a harder life. Also many 45 are made of polystyrene. My understanding is that initially polystyrene can equal or better vinyl but it is less durable.

Phil
Audiodude wrote:I think the 45's I have in this lot have been played on a sub-par turntable. They sound kinda like a 2nd or 3rd generation of an 80's mix tape. I played a Tollie 45 of twist and shout and it was so loud I had to lower the volume. I guess I'll keep dusting them off and playing them till I hear something I like.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by eddie edirol » 25 Jan 2015 05:51

Audiodude wrote:I think the 45's I have in this lot have been played on a sub-par turntable. They sound kinda like a 2nd or 3rd generation of an 80's mix tape. I played a Tollie 45 of twist and shout and it was so loud I had to lower the volume. I guess I'll keep dusting them off and playing them till I hear something I like.
A sub-par pre-owner is possible with the 45s you have, but usually the high end is what gets degraded, not the low end. But since you say your Beatles album has better bass, I cant say its the cart, it just has to be the songs themselves.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by chrissywit » 30 Jan 2015 16:44

Hi and greetings from England.
I have a large collection of 45's dating from 1950 onwards and I'm very proud of my American collection of about 200. I play all my records (33/45/78) on a Elac Miracord 770h using a collection of 3 Stanton 500v3 cartridges each fitted with a specific stylus. 0.5 mil/0.7mil/1mil. I also have a mono Shure cartridge fitted with a 3mil tip for 78's, all are conical. Over the years l have found in general that any record sounds better when played with the correct size stylus. In England mono 45's pressed between 1950 up till 1970 were intended to be played with a 1mil stylus. Post 1970 a stereo/mono compromise tip of 0.07mil should be used. I think that one of the reasons why 1970's 45's turn up in bad shape is because the majority of people (including me) played them to death on cheap machines bought in the 60's that used a 1mil stylus tracking at anything between 5 & 7 grams, causing excessive ware and groove distortion. Could this also have happened in the States?

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by Audiodude » 30 Jan 2015 17:19

Thanks Chrissywit, that's some great information. I am glad you explained this before I tossed these records. I do hate throwing away records! I will do further experimentation with different size needles in the future. Also, this may explain why the needle skates across on some 45's, no matter what the anti-skate is set at. I am using a 2m red Ortofon.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by chrissywit » 30 Jan 2015 19:54

Hi Audiodude.
I'm glad you found my post useful. Your using a great quality cartridge but in my opinion the Ortofon's recommended tracking weight is far too light for used/worn records. In my experience a tried and trusted old school cartridge works better. I use the Stanton 500v3 because it's so versatile, not too expensive and a good selection of stylus are widely available for it, and it can safely track at up to 5 grams with a 1mil stylus, 3-4 grams with a 0.07 stylus.
If your having problems with the arm skating over the record and presuming your stylus is good , it could be your turntable isn't set up correctly. It could be your cartridge is over tracking. ie the cartridge is set too far forward in the head shell which will cause skating, distortion and record damage . My Elac has a built in gauge for measuring this but an alignment tool can be bought on eBay. The precise positioning of the stylus tip is very important. Next you should check that your pick-up arm is correctly balanced, your turntable manual will tell you how to do this. Next set the stylus pressure to suit your cartridge and the anti skate to match the stylus pressure, ie if stylus pressure is 2grams anti skate should be set at 2. I know it sounds like a lot of messing around but the results are worth it. And you can be confident that if your setup and stylus are spot on, a record that sounds bad is a bad record.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by Audiodude » 30 Jan 2015 20:56

The tracking force of the 2m Red is 1.8g that is what I have it set at. I have the anti skate set at 2. I have tried increasing the anti skate to no avail. Perhaps a cartridge with a heavier tracking force would be more suitable to the 45's. I only seem to have problems with a particular batch of 45's, when I play a 12" 33rpm it sounds wonderful. Also, some 45's sound good as well. It does appear that the grooves on the offending 45's are not as deep as most.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by chrissywit » 30 Jan 2015 21:54

Hi again dude.
I forgot to comment on your Beatles experience. Early Beatles recordings were made on quite primative equipment here in the UK using 2 track tape recorders built in 1948. So even when new the records had a raw quality about them and not exactly hi fidelity. I have some original US Beatles 45's on Vejay, Swan and Tollie. The Vejay and Tollie sound a bit flat compared to the UK originals but the Swan is a perfect match. I think Capitol picked them up in 1964, but by that time they were recording on 4 track machine. I know that Capitol remixed the early albums and they sound different to the UK Parlophone recordings. I think the white album was recorded in a 6 or 8 track studio which maybe why it has a full rich sound.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by Audiodude » 30 Jan 2015 22:23

Yes, absolutely, I also have some early Beatles on Tollie and VeeJay, the fidelity difference of early and later is night and day. I actually just listened to Parlophone copy of "Please Please Me" yesterday prior to listing on Ebay. It sounded pretty good, better than the Tollie and VeeJay. With the advent of stereo I believe it may have taken the engineers some time to get a feel for it.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by sparkeee » 26 Feb 2015 17:23

Also most of the early 70s 45s will be in mono, the mono stereo switch is there for good reason on vintage audio equipment.

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by JDJX » 27 Dec 2016 17:47

There is one more reason and it was sometimes discussed back then.

There was a time when when 45s equaled or even surpassed the production of LPs. Think of all the juke boxes in the world and also all the teenagers who bought the 45s.

So, their quality was not a high property.
After all, they were just fodder for juke boxes and teenagers.

Also, all the edge trimmings from LPs were used for 45s and not much was done to prevent any contamination of the recycled vinyl.
100% Virgin vinyl was used for LPs whenever possible.

It was once common knowledge among audiophiles that the quality of 45s were not as good as the the LPs that the songs came from.

Today of course, very few 45 are produced so, all trimmings are recycled for use in LPs.
Hopefully, more care is now taken to prevent contamination of recycled vinyl.

BTW, the most recently pressed 45 that I got was the 45 that was included in the "Alabama Shakes - Boys & Girls" LP.
The quality is very good. So, evidently care was taken in mastering and pressing. :)

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Re: Early 70's 45's

Post by DarthMaul » 28 Dec 2016 15:41

vinyl master wrote:It depends on the 45's...I have some great 45's from the 70's that sound excellent...Possibly, certain labels were better than others...How they were mastered is another thing, but I own about 8,000+ of them, and am not planning on giving them up any time soon...

Remember, a lot of factors go into the playing of vinyl, from the types of pressings to the quality of speakers to the brand of cartridge used...If you try a different cartridge and you get a different sound, don't automatically assume the pressing is at fault...If you try different cartridges, and each one sounds about the same, then maybe it is the record. Of course, a bad copy of a record does not necessarily mean a bad record...A better copy of the same record may surprise you...With 45's, I've found that not all 45's are great, but not all 45's suck, either...And sometimes you have to make small compromises in order to hear the music you love...
Is the original pressing of "Never To Be Forgotten" by the Bobby Fuller Four among them? I just got one that was graded mint. Surely played as close to perfect as it could. It only got one play on each side.

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