Aggressive toe in speaker placement

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Solist
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Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 12 Dec 2019 13:33

Tried a new placement, since I had to clean the room and wanted to try something different. I will need to spin more records to see how it holds up, but for now I am very pleased with it.

Advocated by Earl Geddes, it suggests to toe in the speakers in a way that the axis cross about 3 feet (1m) infront of the listening position. He suggests 45degree toe in. I did not went that aggressive, but I will try it in the near future.

The results were very pleasing. The soundstage is narrower compared to no toe in, but you get a very solid center with very good overall imaging. Also there was an increase in perceived depth.

If you sit off center you really dont loose much if anything, which is a bonus if you dont listen alone.

One thing I was also trying to achieve for some time was trying to get the speakers to "disappear". It was something that I experienced some time ago in a home high end system, and I just could not replicate it with no toe in. My room has no dedicated treatment, which caused trouble before, but with these type of placement I have come a long way. Now, ofcourse it is not as good as the home high end system, but given the money discrepancy between the two systems (you could fit a new german car in between), I am very happy.

Makes me think that this type of placement would be good for untreated rooms like mine. It is also speaker dependent, so not everyone will get the same results.

There is a lot more written about it, so if anyone wants to go into the details, there is plenty to read.

pivot
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by pivot » 12 Dec 2019 14:43

Experiment with "toe out" too. Not very often recommended but works well in some situations.

When I was experimenting with "full range" plus subwoofer setup it was an interesting variation. The small full range speakers I was playing with (a 103 knock off) had a "hot" high end balance as many small cone drivers do.

lenjack
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by lenjack » 12 Dec 2019 15:12

I've heard this recommended as well. Hsu recommends this for one of it's bookshelf systems.

Solist
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 12 Dec 2019 15:59

Will try toe out also, see how it goes.

Yes, it was designed around 2 way speakers, but in my case also works well with my floorstanders. I think that it will work better with rooms where you can get some separation between the speakers, otherwise the soundstage might get too narrow, but I might be wrong. Currently the speakers are 7 foot (210cm) apart.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by rewfew » 14 Dec 2019 23:46

Earl Geddes and another constant directivity horn loaded speaker designer, Wayne Parham have promoted the 45 degree toe in with their speaker systems. That's what I use for mine that are a Parham design. Imaging, placement and orientation. With illustrations. https://audioroundtable.com/forum/index ... g&th=10619

Solist
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 15 Dec 2019 23:59

That should be a good read, thanks for posting!

One question, with your set up, do you get any soundstage from the left side of the left speaker and vice versa? While imaging and depth is really nice, I am wondering if there is any way to widen the soundstage a bit. While its good for smaller bands, I also like to listen to choir music, in which case the soundstage is just too narrow.

I still need to fiddle around with the placement, should take some time to get it right.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by rewfew » 16 Dec 2019 15:35

Yes, I get content exclusive in both sides, depending on the recording. The two designers mentioned have worked primarily with horn loaded designs which this placement really works well for. Good to know it works well with typical cone & dome drivers. Yes, keep experimenting for your best overall fit. Nice to know there's a means to get better sound without costing anything.

Solist
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 16 Dec 2019 17:18

Thanks. I am using EV Interface 2 (mkI), which use an 10" passive radiator with a 8" wide dispersion mid/woofer and wide dispersion 1,5" superdome tweeter, which is crossed at 1,5khz. That wide dispersion EV liked to point out could be the reason this placement works for me. Need to read more about speakers in general.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by rewfew » 17 Dec 2019 16:06

How do you like those speakers? I'd always had a interest in ElectroVoice loudspeakers.

Solist
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 18 Dec 2019 00:21

I like them quite a lot. The only thing I regret, is that I did not also audition the Alpha model.

The mids and highs are very clear and not harsh, but my model might lack a bit in the bass section. Bass is still tight, but they dont go as low as I would want them. Dynamics are also good. I ended up using a Shure M75 to get a bit more focus on the bass and roll off the high freq.

Overall they dont have a character of their own, and do a very nice job of reproducing what is on the recording and get that space transmitted into the listening room.

The only problem I have, is that I am using an early 30 watt SS amp, which needs the volume turned up quite a bit to open up. That would not be an issue if I lived in a house, but currently the system is in an apartment with mediocre sound isolation, which can cause an issue or two.

If I ever decide to upgrade I would certainly take into consideration the more expensive models from EV. Those model D certainly look tempting :D

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by rewfew » 18 Dec 2019 16:10

My speakers are self built from plans from Pi speakers that I sent the link from. Compression horn loaded tweeter mated to a bass reflex box and pro woofer. No problem with getting music to bloom early using 40 watt tube amps. Using them for near 20 years without any notion of, or lust to upgrade. Wish you could build, the options are highly varied and satisfying to live with. Surprised your ElectroVoice speakers can't get going with 30 watts being ramped up as you mentioned.

Solist
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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Solist » 18 Dec 2019 18:03

So what model would yours be? I have seen they offer quite a range.

I was thinking some time ago to build them, but could not find much about crossover design, which then led me to buy the EVs. I was planning on buying a pair of Philips AD9710 and do something with those. I have seen that there is a quite comprehensive paper about crossover design on the Pi website. Might be what I was looking for.

Certainly, is way more satisfactory to build something than just buy it. And most of the times even cheaper, just takes time. Never hurts to learn something new, except if you get shocked...

I am currently working on a MM phono stage with a linear power supply. I finally found a couple of local electronic gurus, which offered help. Maybe after the phono stage is complete, I will have some spare time to focus on speakers.

In regard to those Ev's. They are not hard to push. Most of the time I have my volume knob at about 9 o'clock. If I decided to push them I never go beyond 12 o'clock. It just gets too loud. They way I was told is that older amps usually have the volume knob designed as a resistor. So the more you can push these older amps, the better the sound. Of course the increase in db's will also do its job, but they really start singing once that volume knob gets turned.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by rewfew » 18 Dec 2019 21:48

Mine are a discontinued model. Called the Theater 4 Pi. Fifteen inch woofer with compression tweeter & constant directivity horn lens. The Pi FAQ page. https://audioroundtable.com/forum/index ... 95&start=0 Sign up to the forum and ask Wayne Parham any question you might have. He is very friendly and extremely knowledgeable with all aspects of loudspeaker theory, function and building. His designs are modestly priced per performance. Didn't know you had access to power tools, or interested in diy, but your right it is very satisfying doing it yourself. And with a competent design to go from, you can't go wrong. Good luck with your phono project and perhaps future woodworking project.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Jim Leach » 31 Dec 2019 16:47

You should also experiment with vertical axis.

You might find elevating the front of the cabinet slightly to help. This trick may also help with time alignment if your front baffle is flat. (I’m assuming g the tweeter is on top)

And in general, toe in is good but too much will/can collapse the stage width.

I would see if you can address the early side reflections and go to a Les aggressive toe in, and possibly raising the front. I think you will be pleased with that.

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Re: Aggressive toe in speaker placement

Post by Direct driver » 31 Dec 2019 18:47

I always toed in my speakers when I had horns. I'm less concerned with domes.

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