Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
dysmike
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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by dysmike » 10 Jul 2019 17:16

There's a pretty significant belief that vintage is greater value for your money. I've seen it expressed multiple times, in multiple forums (including this one). I agree with Joe, it can be. But, if you're doing vintage gear it comes with repair and maintenance realities that you need to acknowledge, and be comfortable with, getting into it. The cascading failures described here are an example of why that is. I don't think he was stating anything more.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by JoeE SP9 » 10 Jul 2019 18:03

Adamo0926 wrote:
10 Jul 2019 17:00
JoeE SP9 wrote:
10 Jul 2019 15:42
AsOriginallyRecorded wrote:
10 Jul 2019 02:55
Exactly Adamo,......that is the whole point of this site (or at least why I joined), a mutual respect and interest in other member's experiences and journeys in the world of vinyl music. If we all subscribed to the same likes and dislikes, preferences and desires, brands and setups....well it would be too boring to pursue, and I for one would not be here. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of need in too many individuals to be right, instead of just being there for other members and offering their insights (not opinions, thanks very much), and some direction and encouragement for members seeking answers to their very unique problems. Dumping your kit and adopting mine is not the same thing. An old adage goes "If you can't say something nice.....don't say anything at all". This has been an interesting read for those who admire vintage equipment, and I appreciate and thank those who have offered some positive input. Unfortunately, an usually very nice piece of equipment has had it's useful life cut short......whatever the reason. Other options available, and another journey and story begins! Dance to the music! :)
The whole point of this site is VINYL. It's not vintage as some seem to think.

I was buying gear when most of the coveted vintage pieces were made. I was and still am underwhelmed with most of it. Just about none of it is capable of adequately driving a pair of Acoustats (only vintage) or Magnepans (vintage or new). That pretty much says, that vintage "whatever" has an inadequate power supply.

FWIW: I've been using Magnepans and/or Acoustats exclusively since 1976.

Take note; I'm not against vintage. I use a pair of Dynaco MKIII's (highly modified) as daily drivers. My ARC SP-9 is certainly old enough to be vintage. So is my VPI TT. I'm just not into fixing things any more.

Those who aren't technically inclined should take note that the majority of vintage gear most likely needs serious maintenance. If you can't do it yourself the cost can be considerable.

The only reason I posted to this thread is because of the multiple equipment failures reported.
Good for you Joe.....I don't care what elitist speakers vintage stuff can drive or can't drive. I would never own a pair of Magnepans anyway because you basically have to sit in one precise spot. I listened to a pair once and you move your head 2 inches and everything changes. I want to listen to the music not the equipment. I'm not one of these obsessed audiophiles that claim they can hear differences in the sound from when an amp is just powered up and after it has warmed up for 3 hours. If I ever get to that point, somebody just shoot me.

For me, what I like about vintage is the fact that it is VINTAGE. Just like a '67 Mustang couldn't go faster than a modern day Porsche, I would still take the '67 Mustang every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I want to have a vintage component system that looks great to me and provides me with wonderful sound. I don't need to be critiquing every little note that comes out of my speakers. Even on a system such as yours there is still some stuff that sounds like crap, nothing can compensate for bad sound engineering in the original recording. In fact, on an extensive system like yours a bad recording would sound even worse because your system is so accurate.

You have your preferences and interests and I have mine....and that's what makes things interesting.

All I was trying to say is that if there was a thread by a bunch of OCD audiophiles talking about nuances of speaker placement, interconnects, speaker cable, etc and how it all affects what they hear to a microscopic degree, I wouldn't go in there and post something like "This is why I never want to become an audiophile". Because if they enjoy that I would just let them enjoy it and I would participate in a thread I enjoy.

I'm sure you very much enjoy your set up as I do mine. And that's how it should be.

Peace.

Gary
When did Magnepans become "elitist" speakers? With prices starting at ~$600 a pair that hardly qualifies as elitist.

If you're not sitting down and doing other things instead you're not really listening anyway. Why would you expect any speaker to sound it's best when you're not in the sweet spot?

As for Magnepans having a "2 inch wide sweet spot". That has not been my experience through 4 different pairs of various Magnepan models. I can say the same thing about the four different pairs of Acoustats I've had. Yes, they are position and setup sensitive. However, IMO the resulting sound is worth the effort. A two person wide sweet spot is what I have. If it was only one person wide I wouldn't care.

Besides, when I'm doing serious listening I don't move around. For casual listening when I'm moving around I don't care about pinpoint imaging or an expansive soundstage.

I was merely trying to point out that vintage isn't always the best choice especially if you're not technically inclined. Please note, I didn't rag on any particular piece of gear. The fact that most vintage Japanese receivers have inadequate power supplies is born out by their inability to drive any but the easiest loads.

I chose and stick with Magnepans and Acoustats because with good recordings they sound more realistic to me than any box I've heard and being 71 I've heard a lot.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by pivot » 10 Jul 2019 20:33

I have played with vintage equipment and still have vintage gear in my system. I sold some of the vintage gear mentioned in this thread when it was brand new.

One needs to approach used equipment with eyes open. The cascade failure of amp and speakers is one possible outcome. Knowing both the Yamaha and ADS units in question I suspect careful and competant maintenance MAY have avoided the total failure. I note there is still no mention of what a "complete rebuild" means in this case. Any 40 year old electronic unit is on borrowed time. Electrolytic caps age and fall out of spec just sitting on a self for 40 years. They are well outside their service life.

Looking at a system rebuild recently I weighed the prospect of the value of used gear, with the prospect of frustrating and expensive out of warranty down time, against well reviewed new units with manufactures/dealer warranty and support. For the most part I picked new gear. Others have the choice to pick differently. Neither choice makes one more or less an "elitist".

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by lenjack » 10 Jul 2019 20:47

The problem is, a lot of new stuff, is not built to last, much beyond the warranty period, and is build with barely adequate components, for cost cutting purposes, and is often not worth, or will be, or is non repairable at a reasonable cost.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 10 Jul 2019 20:57

Well perhaps "elitist" was a bit of a misnomer on my part in describing very upper end speakers. I guess that was probably because I have run into folks that are into such high end stuff that if you are someone that isn't they look at you like you have two heads.

I meant elitist in the sense of the speakers being elite as opposed to your run of the mill mid to high end speakers. I think describing them as "exotic" speakers would have been more accurate. I should have recognized that elitist has come to be a term associated with people that look down on others. My bad.

By the way I can move around and listen at the same time, kind of like walking and chewing gum....lol.

Most of the time I am seated like I am now, but on the laptop having conversations like I am having right now : ) I live in a modest condo so even if I wanted to drop tens of thousands of dollars on an exotic system it would be useless in here. Would not even have near enough room for it.

I am also a musician, not professionally, but I have played guitar since I was 16 (am 61 now). I am no Eric Clapton or Jeff Beck but I think I'm a decent guitar player. I have always been into music since high school. So while fidelity and sound are important to me, it's the music that's the most important. And lyrically is a big part of that. I listen to hear the music and be moved by both the music and the lyrics. I want it to sound very good but not to the point where I am constantly thinking about all the technicalities of the equipment and the resulting fidelity. I would drive myself nuts if I were that type of listener.

Aesthetics are important to me also. I want my component system to look vintage. Like the stuff I had in college and just after that. I like that people will do a double take when they see my set up. Or when someone comments on the turntable, the cabinets of my speakers, etc. The new equipment doesn't look unique to me, it all looks the same. It may be equal or far better, I don't know and don't really care. But the stuff I have sounds great and it fits my other criteria.

I'm sure if I heard Joe's set up I would love it. But I've also listened to speakers in a showroom that retailed for 20,000.00/pair and they didn't really blow me away. And they were being driven by some pretty stellar electronics. So price wise I think there is a point of diminishing returns as well. Some people will spend 5000.00 on a set of speaker cables. I think that's bordering on insane...lol.....but I don't have their ears, or probably their money either, so if they think it makes a significant difference than who am I to judge ? : )
Last edited by Adamo0926 on 10 Jul 2019 21:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by pivot » 10 Jul 2019 21:04

lenjack wrote:
10 Jul 2019 20:47
The problem is, a lot of new stuff, is not built to last, much beyond the warranty period, and is build with barely adequate components, for cost cutting purposes, and is often not worth, or will be, or is non repairable at a reasonable cost.
Same could be said about a lot of "old stuff" too.

There has always been junk and high value gear. Make sure you allow for inflation when comparing old and new. On some older gear exact replacement parts cannot be sourced.

The myth of "they don't make 'em like they used to.." Is mostly distorted perception. All the old junk is in the land fill and only serviceable well made stuff remains. The "filter of time" sifts out the garbage.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 10 Jul 2019 21:06

Part of it is nostalgia and the classic styling of some of the vintage stuff. You probably wouldn't have been able to afford a Yamaha CR-2020 back then but maybe a CR-620 would have been within your budget at the time. In 1975 the CR-1000 cost $850 which was way out of reach for some of us who were barely out of our teens.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 11 Jul 2019 04:02

Just had a long conversation with my friend regarding his Yamaha CR-2020. The thing is in just such pristine cosmetic condition that we decided that I will pick it up from the tech tomorrow and bring it to my place. I will then hook it up and test it myself to see what is working and what is not working. When we tested it at his place we did not test it with a fully functioning pair of speakers, only the ADS L810s which one speaker had all the drivers blown.

So tomorrow morning I will hook it up to a small pair of Boston Acoustics HD7 speakers that I have here. If something happens to them, not a big deal. But then I can at least see if both channels are still functioning on the receiver and if it plays cleanly. If it does, maybe the repair might not be as extensive as we thought it might have been.

I want to hear this thing for myself before deciding if it's only good for parts. I'm not sure I trust any tech anymore. I want to hear for myself before making any decisions or offering any advice to my buddy. He has been reading this thread, by the way, he just has not become a member yet....lol.

Stay tuned.....this beautiful receiver may not be dead yet.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by AsOriginallyRecorded » 11 Jul 2019 04:35

Well stated Tinkeroo and Adamo.....my feelings as well. Additionally, risk of wear and tear causing a failure to vintage equipment is pretty much acknowledged and accepted by those who use and enjoy vintage equipment. A major point of consideration however, is that when new equipment fails, it is usually instant junk, but a majority of vintage can usually be renewed, restored, refurbished. Aesthetics are also a huge consideration for many vintage fans...Ditto the reliability factor....I have many vintage components that have only needed a bit of cleaning, DeOxit of controls, some relubing of mechanisms and they carry on displaying the quality that was built into them decades before. Disappointing if I ever totally lost one to failure, but yes, several others waiting in the wings to carry on. Not for everyone, but suits me and others like me just fine. Namaste! :D

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by vanakaru » 11 Jul 2019 08:41

There is a cost/price argument also. New gear of the high quality as you find in vintage stuff is often 10 times more expensive. Then from another angle - technology and electronics have been developed in 50 years fair amount. So theoretically well made stuff must be better than any old gear. But almost anything that you can buy is mass produced and that can be a problem. Obviously modern high gear is not - at least in part - and has crafted by human.
However I own some 10 vintage amps, about same amount vintage TTs but in my main system very cheap tiny(compared to vintage) Chinese class D amp gets used every day. Go figure!

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 11 Jul 2019 18:49

I have my friend's Yamaha CR-2020 here and just hooked it up using a small pair of Boston Acoustics HD7 speakers. There were 2 minor problems with the receiver before any of this overheating thing happened that are still there. The audio muting button will cause a channel to break up and cut out if you press the button in even slightly. And the channels when listening to the tuner are breaking up but when you depress the FM Dolby Adapter button a little the channels start coming back.

Other than that both channels are playing cleanly with no distortion, static, breaking up or cutting out. Listening to Donald Fagen "Kamakiriad" on the Marantz CD6006 as I type.

Other than those 2 buttons that are causing issues and either need to be cleaned better or replaced, I don't think there is anything wrong with this thing. It sounds quite nice even through these rather bargain basement Boston HD7s.

I also just went over and felt the top and it's running no warmer than my own CR-2020.

I also put a small piece of duct tape on the front corner of Dale's CR-2020 so I wouldn't get them mixed up....lol. Don't laugh too hard, you are conversing with someone that locked themselves out of their own condo last week....

Anyway.....that's the latest status. I think gutting this beauty for parts would be tragic....

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by JoeE SP9 » 11 Jul 2019 20:09

Adamo0926 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 18:49
I think gutting this beauty for parts would be tragic....
Who/what in the world gave you the idea that anyone suggested gutting it for parts?

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 12 Jul 2019 00:39

JoeE SP9 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 20:09
Adamo0926 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 18:49
I think gutting this beauty for parts would be tragic....
Who/what in the world gave you the idea that anyone suggested gutting it for parts?
The last tech that saw it. I think because the channels were cutting out while playing the tuner he assumed the output capacitors had been damaged. I never told him about the 2 buttons that were causing the channels to break up. Obviously he didn't do an in depth check.

Maybe there is something inside that needs servicing, but as of right now all I can find that is wrong with it are the 2 buttons that I mentioned in my last post.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 12 Jul 2019 10:02

Adamo0926 wrote:
12 Jul 2019 00:39
JoeE SP9 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 20:09
Adamo0926 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 18:49
I think gutting this beauty for parts would be tragic....
Who/what in the world gave you the idea that anyone suggested gutting it for parts?
The last tech that saw it. I think because the channels were cutting out while playing the tuner he assumed the output capacitors had been damaged. I never told him about the 2 buttons that were causing the channels to break up. Obviously he didn't do an in depth check.

Maybe there is something inside that needs servicing, but as of right now all I can find that is wrong with it are the 2 buttons that I mentioned in my last post.
You should clean those two switches and see if that clears it up. Replacing the switches may not be necessary and would be much more difficult.

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Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 12 Jul 2019 12:26

Tinkaroo wrote:
12 Jul 2019 10:02
Adamo0926 wrote:
12 Jul 2019 00:39
JoeE SP9 wrote:
11 Jul 2019 20:09


Who/what in the world gave you the idea that anyone suggested gutting it for parts?
The last tech that saw it. I think because the channels were cutting out while playing the tuner he assumed the output capacitors had been damaged. I never told him about the 2 buttons that were causing the channels to break up. Obviously he didn't do an in depth check.

Maybe there is something inside that needs servicing, but as of right now all I can find that is wrong with it are the 2 buttons that I mentioned in my last post.
You should clean those two switches and see if that clears it up. Replacing the switches may not be necessary and would be much more difficult.
Tink....his CR 2020 has been to 2 techs for servicing. The first one for the complete refurbishing and the second one to supposedly clean up the issue with those 2 buttons that didn't get fixed during the complete refurbishing. (hard to believe). So it comes back from the 2nd tech and still has the same problem, which caused this last tech to think the receiver was fried from overheating and declares it DOA and would take about 400.00 to bring it back.

It's really hard to believe that it would have been serviced twice without either tech cleaning those contacts. But at this point I have no idea what has been done or not done to this thing and neither does Dale.

I mean, do these guys even test this stuff after they work on it ???

So maybe they did clean the contacts for those 2 buttons and it's going to take more than a cleaning. If so, I found the 2 buttons from a place called Oak Tree Vintage which is parting out a CR 2020. The buttons are 25.00 each so not so bad. And I would think any competent tech could put them in pretty easily.

It's getting so I don't trust any of these guys anymore....or maybe this stuff is just so complicated to troubleshoot and repair that I am giving them a bad rap....