Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
Adamo0926
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 532
Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:22
Location: Connecticut

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 09 Jul 2019 20:39

Tinkaroo wrote:
09 Jul 2019 18:21
That is very sad to hear, and I'm sure your friend is upset about losing their receiver.

I have. CR-1000, CR-820 and a CT-600 tuner and like them a lot.The biggest one the CR-1000 which was their earlier top of the line, fortunately does not get very hot.

Good advice to not leave any receiver turned on for such a long time. I know you will take good care of yours.
Tink.....he's only gotten to listen to the receiver a few times without issue in the year since he bought it. Remember it was at the shop for like 10 months. At this point he believes this CR-2020 is cursed, possessed or both lol.

He's going to try to salvage some money from it and is looking to get a Sansui or Marantz receiver. Right now he has his eye on a Sansui G-5500 that someone is selling for 300.00. The next adventure may be about to begin :shock:

aardvarkash10
long player
long player
Posts: 1431
Joined: 24 Mar 2009 01:57
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by aardvarkash10 » 09 Jul 2019 21:31

Here's the likely chain of events.

The speaker driver gives up (tested by substitution and found to be faulty), going short circuit (they fail short or open circuit - open circuit is safe, short, not so much...). This takes out the output stage of the amp (attempting to drive into a short circuit is not a happy workload).

The humming is the power transformer working into yet another short circuit (the damaged output stage), and getting hot in the process. It probably suffers an insulation breakdown, leading ot more heat, more humming.

As to leave it on or not? The device is designed to have a working temperature, and the components are selected and laid out to account for this. Temperature fluctuations are a different problem generallly arising from cycling the device on and off. The component most at risk from temperature fluctuations is the power transformer. Heat changes cause expansion and contraction leading to damage in the insulation and ultimately to failure.

Only two states will overcome this problem - leave it off forever, or leave it on forever.

Volume level has nothing to do with this if there is no signal and, if its a class A or AB amp, nothing at all to do with this. Leave it cranked to 11 or set on silent, as long as there is no signal the heat signature of the amp will be the same. Class A is the same even with a signal - its the nature of the design that Class A draws a set amount of current regardless of the output volume.

lenjack
long player
long player
Posts: 2160
Joined: 23 Jun 2017 02:11
Location: Liverpool,PA

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by lenjack » 09 Jul 2019 21:50

You're saying the speaker took out the amp. I think the amp, particularly and probably, the power supply filter cap or a rectifier, in one channel failed, and took out the speaker. We may never know for sure, unless a highly qualified tech reviews it, which is not worth the $. I'm still laying it on the refurb.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5113
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by JoeE SP9 » 09 Jul 2019 22:46

This thread demonstrates exactly why I'm not into vintage or most used gear.

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7497
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 20:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 09 Jul 2019 23:10

Adamo0926 wrote:
09 Jul 2019 20:39
Tinkaroo wrote:
09 Jul 2019 18:21
That is very sad to hear, and I'm sure your friend is upset about losing their receiver.

I have. CR-1000, CR-820 and a CT-600 tuner and like them a lot.The biggest one the CR-1000 which was their earlier top of the line, fortunately does not get very hot.

Good advice to not leave any receiver turned on for such a long time. I know you will take good care of yours.
Tink.....he's only gotten to listen to the receiver a few times without issue in the year since he bought it. Remember it was at the shop for like 10 months. At this point he believes this CR-2020 is cursed, possessed or both lol.

He's going to try to salvage some money from it and is looking to get a Sansui or Marantz receiver. Right now he has his eye on a Sansui G-5500 that someone is selling for 300.00. The next adventure may be about to begin :shock:
The G-5500 at 60 watts per channel is nice. There is also the Sansui 881 or 7070 at the same power rating. In something a bit older the Sansui Eight or Eight Deluxe are quite desireable but will fetch a premium. I have the Sansui 2000X and 9090 which are both nice too.

I hope he finds a nice replacement that helps him forget about the cursed Yammie.

Adamo0926
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 532
Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:22
Location: Connecticut

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 10 Jul 2019 01:00

Tinkaroo wrote:
09 Jul 2019 23:10
Adamo0926 wrote:
09 Jul 2019 20:39
Tinkaroo wrote:
09 Jul 2019 18:21
That is very sad to hear, and I'm sure your friend is upset about losing their receiver.

I have. CR-1000, CR-820 and a CT-600 tuner and like them a lot.The biggest one the CR-1000 which was their earlier top of the line, fortunately does not get very hot.

Good advice to not leave any receiver turned on for such a long time. I know you will take good care of yours.
Tink.....he's only gotten to listen to the receiver a few times without issue in the year since he bought it. Remember it was at the shop for like 10 months. At this point he believes this CR-2020 is cursed, possessed or both lol.

He's going to try to salvage some money from it and is looking to get a Sansui or Marantz receiver. Right now he has his eye on a Sansui G-5500 that someone is selling for 300.00. The next adventure may be about to begin :shock:
The G-5500 at 60 watts per channel is nice. There is also the Sansui 881 or 7070 at the same power rating. In something a bit older the Sansui Eight or Eight Deluxe are quite desireable but will fetch a premium. I have the Sansui 2000X and 9090 which are both nice too.

I hope he finds a nice replacement that helps him forget about the cursed Yammie.
Tink......I just talked to the tech who said he would give my friend the following deal.

If he lets him have the Yamaha CR-2020 for parts, he will sell him the Sansui Eight that he has there for 275.00. I see 3 other Sansui Eights on Ebay right now at the following prices.....749.99, 799.99 and 950.00.

I am trying to talk him into getting the Sansui Eight.....the more I am reading about it the more I find out that it's a legendary receiver. I think he would be nuts to turn it down for that price....He could try to sell the CR-2020 for parts but who knows how long it would take to sell and how much he would get for it even. Then he would have to pack and ship the behemoth as well.

I have not read even one tiny bad thing about the Sansui Eight everywhere I have looked so far. Only glowing compliments. One guy said he would keep his Eight over his 9090db....that's pretty high praise I would think

Adamo0926
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 532
Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:22
Location: Connecticut

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 10 Jul 2019 01:06

JoeE SP9 wrote:
09 Jul 2019 22:46
This thread demonstrates exactly why I'm not into vintage or most used gear.
And that's cool.....but then why even post in this thread ? Collecting older vintage stuff is fun but of course has it's risks. But I will take a classic and the looks of a classic over most of today's stuff which looks like it broke off of SkyLab and fell to earth.

For a car analogy.....Keep your Tesla's and modern day Beemers and give me a '57 Chevy Bel-Air or a '67 Mustang.

AsOriginallyRecorded
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 896
Joined: 26 Jun 2018 06:05

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by AsOriginallyRecorded » 10 Jul 2019 02:55

Exactly Adamo,......that is the whole point of this site (or at least why I joined), a mutual respect and interest in other member's experiences and journeys in the world of vinyl music. If we all subscribed to the same likes and dislikes, preferences and desires, brands and setups....well it would be too boring to pursue, and I for one would not be here. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of need in too many individuals to be right, instead of just being there for other members and offering their insights (not opinions, thanks very much), and some direction and encouragement for members seeking answers to their very unique problems. Dumping your kit and adopting mine is not the same thing. An old adage goes "If you can't say something nice.....don't say anything at all". This has been an interesting read for those who admire vintage equipment, and I appreciate and thank those who have offered some positive input. Unfortunately, an usually very nice piece of equipment has had it's useful life cut short......whatever the reason. Other options available, and another journey and story begins! Dance to the music! :)

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7497
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 20:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 10 Jul 2019 09:56

That deal for the Sansui Eight sounds like a good option and well worth considering. 8)

They were built to a very high standard of quality and highly regarded.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5113
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by JoeE SP9 » 10 Jul 2019 15:42

AsOriginallyRecorded wrote:
10 Jul 2019 02:55
Exactly Adamo,......that is the whole point of this site (or at least why I joined), a mutual respect and interest in other member's experiences and journeys in the world of vinyl music. If we all subscribed to the same likes and dislikes, preferences and desires, brands and setups....well it would be too boring to pursue, and I for one would not be here. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of need in too many individuals to be right, instead of just being there for other members and offering their insights (not opinions, thanks very much), and some direction and encouragement for members seeking answers to their very unique problems. Dumping your kit and adopting mine is not the same thing. An old adage goes "If you can't say something nice.....don't say anything at all". This has been an interesting read for those who admire vintage equipment, and I appreciate and thank those who have offered some positive input. Unfortunately, an usually very nice piece of equipment has had it's useful life cut short......whatever the reason. Other options available, and another journey and story begins! Dance to the music! :)
The whole point of this site is VINYL. It's not vintage as some seem to think.

I was buying gear when most of the coveted vintage pieces were made. I was and still am underwhelmed with most of it. Just about none of it is capable of adequately driving a pair of Acoustats (only vintage) or Magnepans (vintage or new). That pretty much says, that vintage "whatever" has an inadequate power supply.

FWIW: I've been using Magnepans and/or Acoustats exclusively since 1976.

Take note; I'm not against vintage. I use a pair of Dynaco MKIII's (highly modified) as daily drivers. My ARC SP-9 is certainly old enough to be vintage. So is my VPI TT. I'm just not into fixing things any more.

Those who aren't technically inclined should take note that the majority of vintage gear most likely needs serious maintenance. If you can't do it yourself the cost can be considerable.

The only reason I posted to this thread is because of the multiple equipment failures reported.

pivot
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4990
Joined: 27 Dec 2002 14:31
Location: Albany, NY USA
Contact:

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by pivot » 10 Jul 2019 15:55

If it failed with a loud buzz it was NOT the speaker taking out the amp. Rarely encountered a voice coil failing as a short, most fail open. I have seen a lot of blown speakers. The fact the Yamaha was left on may have shortened the time to failure but the failure was going to happen sooner or later.

A rebuild of a vintage amp should involve a complete replacement of ALL electrolytic capacitors. Testing a 30 year old electrolytic is not suffecent. The amp should then have a full test and must meet or exceed new factory specs. The rebuild should be guaranteed for some amount of time, 30 to 90 days is pretty standard. With a competent technician, this will not be cheap.

If you cheap out on the rebuild, expect blown speakers, or at least losing some of the transistors in the unit. Some of those transistors (bipolar, fets, vfets, jfets, or what have have you) may be made of "unobtanium" in the 21st century.

Ya pays yer money ya makes your choice.

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7497
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 20:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 10 Jul 2019 16:13

For what it's worth s**t happens and anything electrical can experience a failure regardless of its age. I have several vintage receivers that have had extensive restoration work done to them and they work flawlessly and are worth the extra money they cost me.On the other hand I also have some non restored receivers and amps that work great too with zero issues even though some are over 40 years old.

It's unfortunate the Yamaha CR-2020 broke down but probably being left on helped in that respect plus the fact they tend to run hot. I've read they are difficult to work on, and restoration work can be expensive due to the labor involved.

circularvibes
long player
long player
Posts: 1448
Joined: 24 Sep 2010 02:09
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by circularvibes » 10 Jul 2019 16:25

It is also possible that a decent rebuild was done and a new part could have been faulty. Not likely, but possible. Short of another tech looking at the work it is impossible to know if the work was poorly done. I did have a receiver that had two different techs work on it and it still failed. After close to $2000 I had to give up and try another one.

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7497
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 20:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Tinkaroo » 10 Jul 2019 16:33

If any of my amps or receivers goes down I've got capable spare replacements waiting in the wing to fill in. That helps to mitigate the pain such a catastrophe might cause. :wink:

Adamo0926
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 532
Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:22
Location: Connecticut

Re: Need some input - unusual receiver overheating issue

Post by Adamo0926 » 10 Jul 2019 17:00

JoeE SP9 wrote:
10 Jul 2019 15:42
AsOriginallyRecorded wrote:
10 Jul 2019 02:55
Exactly Adamo,......that is the whole point of this site (or at least why I joined), a mutual respect and interest in other member's experiences and journeys in the world of vinyl music. If we all subscribed to the same likes and dislikes, preferences and desires, brands and setups....well it would be too boring to pursue, and I for one would not be here. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of need in too many individuals to be right, instead of just being there for other members and offering their insights (not opinions, thanks very much), and some direction and encouragement for members seeking answers to their very unique problems. Dumping your kit and adopting mine is not the same thing. An old adage goes "If you can't say something nice.....don't say anything at all". This has been an interesting read for those who admire vintage equipment, and I appreciate and thank those who have offered some positive input. Unfortunately, an usually very nice piece of equipment has had it's useful life cut short......whatever the reason. Other options available, and another journey and story begins! Dance to the music! :)
The whole point of this site is VINYL. It's not vintage as some seem to think.

I was buying gear when most of the coveted vintage pieces were made. I was and still am underwhelmed with most of it. Just about none of it is capable of adequately driving a pair of Acoustats (only vintage) or Magnepans (vintage or new). That pretty much says, that vintage "whatever" has an inadequate power supply.

FWIW: I've been using Magnepans and/or Acoustats exclusively since 1976.

Take note; I'm not against vintage. I use a pair of Dynaco MKIII's (highly modified) as daily drivers. My ARC SP-9 is certainly old enough to be vintage. So is my VPI TT. I'm just not into fixing things any more.

Those who aren't technically inclined should take note that the majority of vintage gear most likely needs serious maintenance. If you can't do it yourself the cost can be considerable.

The only reason I posted to this thread is because of the multiple equipment failures reported.
Good for you Joe.....I don't care what elitist speakers vintage stuff can drive or can't drive. I would never own a pair of Magnepans anyway because you basically have to sit in one precise spot. I listened to a pair once and you move your head 2 inches and everything changes. I want to listen to the music not the equipment. I'm not one of these obsessed audiophiles that claim they can hear differences in the sound from when an amp is just powered up and after it has warmed up for 3 hours. If I ever get to that point, somebody just shoot me.

For me, what I like about vintage is the fact that it is VINTAGE. Just like a '67 Mustang couldn't go faster than a modern day Porsche, I would still take the '67 Mustang every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I want to have a vintage component system that looks great to me and provides me with wonderful sound. I don't need to be critiquing every little note that comes out of my speakers. Even on a system such as yours there is still some stuff that sounds like crap, nothing can compensate for bad sound engineering in the original recording. In fact, on an extensive system like yours a bad recording would sound even worse because your system is so accurate.

You have your preferences and interests and I have mine....and that's what makes things interesting.

All I was trying to say is that if there was a thread by a bunch of OCD audiophiles talking about nuances of speaker placement, interconnects, speaker cable, etc and how it all affects what they hear to a microscopic degree, I wouldn't go in there and post something like "This is why I never want to become an audiophile". Because if they enjoy that I would just let them enjoy it and I would participate in a thread I enjoy.

I'm sure you very much enjoy your set up as I do mine. And that's how it should be.

Peace.

Gary