Adding a giant subwoofer

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
jc_the_trucker
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by jc_the_trucker » 12 Nov 2018 02:00

I love how a simple question always gets turned into a passionate debate around here :lol: . FWIW, my system sounds great. 100% satisfied with the sound. I do need to consolidate some equipment eventually as I have too many switches. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like I need a checklist and some “remove before flight” tags. The good thing is, no one else will touch my system because they can’t figure it out. It’s like a manual transmission, the ultimate theft deterrent in the modern world.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by LD100 » 12 Nov 2018 02:36

jc_the_trucker wrote:
12 Nov 2018 02:00
I love how a simple question always gets turned into a passionate debate around here :lol: . FWIW, my system sounds great. 100% satisfied with the sound. I do need to consolidate some equipment eventually as I have too many switches. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like I need a checklist and some “remove before flight” tags. The good thing is, no one else will touch my system because they can’t figure it out. It’s like a manual transmission, the ultimate theft deterrent in the modern world.
+1
I agree 100 percent! =D>

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 12 Nov 2018 10:31

IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I'll give a quick update here on the Dayton 15" subwoofer. First, after ordering it on a Wednesday night, I got (shipping free) on Friday! Helps they're in Ohio, and I'm in upstate NY.

So far so good. Sounds really good in my application. Which is just music, a combination of vinyl and CD's. I just got the new release of Tom Morello's The Atlas Underground. If you liked him in Rage Against the Machine, this is a very different type of endeavor. Think EDM meets guitars. A terrific album overall. And boy is there heavy bass content on this record. My room explodes with low end, in a good way.

So I would disagree with Sterling1 on no bass content on vinyl. It really depends on the recording. But even stuff that generally would be less associated with subwoofer dependent, it can be there too, maybe more subtle.

I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table, lol. But what's great this location, is that I can reach right over, and adjust the gain and crossover point whenever necessary without ever leaving my listening position. It's also close to one corner of my room, but with enough air to breathe around it. It is basically on the opposite wall of my main speakers. I wasn't sure if this would be an issue or not. I actually prefer it. Before with my JBL sub, I had it right near my other speakers and it was a cluttered mess and I can almost pinpoint where the bass was coming from. Now it just seems to fill the room, while letting the main speakers (ELAC Debut 2 6.2) do their thing.

I have the volume set mostly at about noon, crossover point not too high, maybe half way or less. I'm trying not to have too much upper bass come from the sub, really using it just as an extension for the Elacs.

The amp is rated at 150w which while not a lot, seems sufficient to me right now. My room is small, so it works. If using it for home theater and a large room, maybe 2 of these would be needed. So far for my needs it is working out very well. And $200 seems like a great value (looks nice too).

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 12 Nov 2018 10:38

IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I'll give a quick update here on the Dayton 15" subwoofer. First, after ordering it on a Wednesday night, I got (shipping free) on Friday! Helps they're in Ohio, and I'm in upstate NY.

So far so good. Sounds really good in my application. Which is just music, a combination of vinyl and CD's. I just got the new release of Tom Morello's The Atlas Underground. If you liked him in Rage Against the Machine, this is a very different type of endeavor. Think EDM meets guitars. A terrific album overall. And boy is there heavy bass content on this record. My room explodes with low end, in a good way.

So I would disagree with Sterling1 on no bass content on vinyl. It really depends on the recording. But even stuff that generally would be less associated with subwoofer dependent, it can be there too, maybe more subtle.

I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table, lol. But what's great this location, is that I can reach right over, and adjust the gain and crossover point whenever necessary without ever leaving my listening position. It's also close to one corner of my room, but with enough air to breathe around it. It is basically on the opposite wall of my main speakers. I wasn't sure if this would be an issue or not. I actually prefer it. Before with my JBL sub, I had it right near my other speakers and it was a cluttered mess and I can almost pinpoint where the bass was coming from. Now it just seems to fill the room, while letting the main speakers (ELAC Debut 2 6.2) do their thing.

I have the volume set mostly at about noon, crossover point not too high, maybe half way or less. I'm trying not to have too much upper bass come from the sub, really using it just as an extension for the Elacs.

The amp is rated at 150w which while not a lot, seems sufficient to me right now. My room is small, so it works. If using it for home theater and a large room, maybe 2 of these would be needed. So far for my needs it is working out very well. And $200 seems like a great value (looks nice too).
I did not say "no bass content".

IRG
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 12 Nov 2018 14:47

Sterling1 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 10:38
IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I'll give a quick update here on the Dayton 15" subwoofer. First, after ordering it on a Wednesday night, I got (shipping free) on Friday! Helps they're in Ohio, and I'm in upstate NY.

So far so good. Sounds really good in my application. Which is just music, a combination of vinyl and CD's. I just got the new release of Tom Morello's The Atlas Underground. If you liked him in Rage Against the Machine, this is a very different type of endeavor. Think EDM meets guitars. A terrific album overall. And boy is there heavy bass content on this record. My room explodes with low end, in a good way.

So I would disagree with Sterling1 on no bass content on vinyl. It really depends on the recording. But even stuff that generally would be less associated with subwoofer dependent, it can be there too, maybe more subtle.

I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table, lol. But what's great this location, is that I can reach right over, and adjust the gain and crossover point whenever necessary without ever leaving my listening position. It's also close to one corner of my room, but with enough air to breathe around it. It is basically on the opposite wall of my main speakers. I wasn't sure if this would be an issue or not. I actually prefer it. Before with my JBL sub, I had it right near my other speakers and it was a cluttered mess and I can almost pinpoint where the bass was coming from. Now it just seems to fill the room, while letting the main speakers (ELAC Debut 2 6.2) do their thing.

I have the volume set mostly at about noon, crossover point not too high, maybe half way or less. I'm trying not to have too much upper bass come from the sub, really using it just as an extension for the Elacs.

The amp is rated at 150w which while not a lot, seems sufficient to me right now. My room is small, so it works. If using it for home theater and a large room, maybe 2 of these would be needed. So far for my needs it is working out very well. And $200 seems like a great value (looks nice too).
I did not say "no bass content".

Sterling1 wrote:
06 Aug 2018 14:44
For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
It sure seems implied here. I've found the genres I listen to have both plenty of content, and it does give the music add depth and presence. Musical genres being rock, classic rock, jazz, blues. Crossover point between 60-80hz. I haven't listened to CD's since I got this sub, I'll have to do so soon, to see if I hear an even bigger difference (I'm expecting I might).

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 12 Nov 2018 15:19

IRG wrote:
12 Nov 2018 14:47
Sterling1 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 10:38
IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I'll give a quick update here on the Dayton 15" subwoofer. First, after ordering it on a Wednesday night, I got (shipping free) on Friday! Helps they're in Ohio, and I'm in upstate NY.

So far so good. Sounds really good in my application. Which is just music, a combination of vinyl and CD's. I just got the new release of Tom Morello's The Atlas Underground. If you liked him in Rage Against the Machine, this is a very different type of endeavor. Think EDM meets guitars. A terrific album overall. And boy is there heavy bass content on this record. My room explodes with low end, in a good way.

So I would disagree with Sterling1 on no bass content on vinyl. It really depends on the recording. But even stuff that generally would be less associated with subwoofer dependent, it can be there too, maybe more subtle.

I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table, lol. But what's great this location, is that I can reach right over, and adjust the gain and crossover point whenever necessary without ever leaving my listening position. It's also close to one corner of my room, but with enough air to breathe around it. It is basically on the opposite wall of my main speakers. I wasn't sure if this would be an issue or not. I actually prefer it. Before with my JBL sub, I had it right near my other speakers and it was a cluttered mess and I can almost pinpoint where the bass was coming from. Now it just seems to fill the room, while letting the main speakers (ELAC Debut 2 6.2) do their thing.

I have the volume set mostly at about noon, crossover point not too high, maybe half way or less. I'm trying not to have too much upper bass come from the sub, really using it just as an extension for the Elacs.

The amp is rated at 150w which while not a lot, seems sufficient to me right now. My room is small, so it works. If using it for home theater and a large room, maybe 2 of these would be needed. So far for my needs it is working out very well. And $200 seems like a great value (looks nice too).
I did not say "no bass content".

Sterling1 wrote:
06 Aug 2018 14:44
For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
It sure seems implied here. I've found the genres I listen to have both plenty of content, and it does give the music add depth and presence. Musical genres being rock, classic rock, jazz, blues. Crossover point between 60-80hz. I haven't listened to CD's since I got this sub, I'll have to do so soon, to see if I hear an even bigger difference (I'm expecting I might).
Here's bass in the 30 Hz arena. This is as low as you are likely to hear, not from vinyl, and perhaps not from CD either. Not because CD can't deliver it but because the genre of music with this bass is mostly streamed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRgKAiCCXKQ

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 12 Nov 2018 15:26

Well at the moment I'm at work with small little monitor speakers, so that doesn't help. And I don't stream on my home system (intentional) at the moment. Might be persuaded to in the future. My Musical Fidelity DAC gives me the option to add a second input from a bluetooth player via optical. Just haven't done that yet.

I would love to hear how low the bass is on the Tom Morello record I mentioned earlier. It is probably the deepest thing I have. But I'm not generally not into genres that have the lowest bass possible (EDM, rap, etc.)

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Gravitar8 » 12 Nov 2018 15:31

Let's open up this can of worms: DBX (and other manufacturers) 120A Subsonic Bass Synthesizers. You've likely already heard one (clubs, bars, concerts) and having lived with one at one time in the home I can say they are fun. When I had mine my main speakers were 'tiny' sealed 2 way studio monitors (literally retired from a recording studio) and they amazed with ability to pump out serious low end...not sure I was doing the voice coils any favors but you know- once in a while you need to mix things up.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by hobie1dog » 12 Nov 2018 15:53

Gravitar8 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 15:31
Let's open up this can of worms: DBX (and other manufacturers) 120A Subsonic Bass Synthesizers. You've likely already heard one (clubs, bars, concerts) and having lived with one at one time in the home I can say they are fun. When I had mine my main speakers were 'tiny' sealed 2 way studio monitors (literally retired from a recording studio) and they amazed with ability to pump out serious low end...not sure I was doing the voice coils any favors but you know- once in a while you need to mix things up.
50 years of audio and I have never owned one. :(

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Gravitar8 » 12 Nov 2018 16:37

The Wrath of Khan Spock: For everything thing there is a first time. Don't you agree Admiral?

50 years of audio and I have never owned one. :(

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by rewfew » 12 Nov 2018 17:23

IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table
Someday, and I've been saying this for years. Someday I'll put my JBL 1500 sub driver in a box and pair a couple of 10" subs close to the main speakers for a multi sub approach that has gained favor to iron out room nodes. IRG's sub location is about the only way to get favorable sub integration as he points out with prior close to main's single sub location.
Gravitar8 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 15:31
Let's open up this can of worms: DBX (and other manufacturers) 120A Subsonic Bass Synthesizers
I've used an Aphex aurel exciter for years with my vinyl playback. It has an optical "big bottom" low end without level boost eq of a synthesizer. With a bypass function enabled to compare without the exciter engaged, I've never preferred the disengagement.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 12 Nov 2018 23:19

IME if you set your system up to be as flat, low frequency wise, as you can afford you will achieve the best results. I say low frequency wise because IME systems that are flat to 20KHz sound rather harsh and quickly induce ear fatigue. I much prefer a 6dB/octave roll off above ~12KHz.

That movies have accentuated low frequencies is a given. It's almost a certainty, that a sub(s) set up to be flat on two channel material will usually sound overblown reproducing a movie soundtrack while music sounds fine. IMO the key to the issue is that you have to accept that movies have overblown low frequencies. They are supposed to! How else will they keep filling those theatre seats. Remember, most of those theatre goers have never heard a "decent" stereo. Consequently they have no idea what reasonably accurate bass response sounds like.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Gravitar8 » 12 Nov 2018 23:29

Aphex Aurel Exciter- cool! I wonder if an Eventide Ultra Harmonizer would be fun? Another tangent..... Q-Sound! IME sounded D E E P. I think I'll start a new thread "What happened to Q-Sound?"
rewfew wrote:
12 Nov 2018 17:23
IRG wrote:
11 Nov 2018 17:33
I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table
Someday, and I've been saying this for years. Someday I'll put my JBL 1500 sub driver in a box and pair a couple of 10" subs close to the main speakers for a multi sub approach that has gained favor to iron out room nodes. IRG's sub location is about the only way to get favorable sub integration as he points out with prior close to main's single sub location.
Gravitar8 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 15:31
Let's open up this can of worms: DBX (and other manufacturers) 120A Subsonic Bass Synthesizers
I've used an Aphex aurel exciter for years with my vinyl playback. It has an optical "big bottom" low end without level boost eq of a synthesizer. With a bypass function enabled to compare without the exciter engaged, I've never preferred the disengagement.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 12 Nov 2018 23:48

JoeE SP9 wrote:
12 Nov 2018 23:19
IME if you set your system up to be as flat, low frequency wise, as you can afford you will achieve the best results. I say low frequency wise because IME systems that are flat to 20KHz sound rather harsh and quickly induce ear fatigue. I much prefer a 6dB/octave roll off above ~12KHz.

That movies have accentuated low frequencies is a given. It's almost a certainty, that a sub(s) set up to be flat with a two channel stereo signal will likely sound like too much on a movie and vice versa for setting up using an HT source. IMO the key to the issue is that you have to accept that movies have overblown low frequencies. They are supposed to! How else will they keep filling those theatre seats. Remember, most of those theatre goers have never heard a "decent" stereo. Consequently they have no idea what reasonably accurate bass response sounds like.
Interestingly enough, my system allows for me to have it my way for movies and music. Movies are processed via OPPO UDP-205 converting PCM or DSD to analog, which is sent to Sony TA-P9000ES multi-channel analog preamplifier, which bypasses my digital signal processing preamp, to allow each channel to be adjusted to level and balance liking. For stereo music from OPPO, or other sources, digital or analog output is sent to Sony TA-E9000ES, where DSP allows sub output to be adjusted for level and crossover. With this system I do not usually need to make any gain adjustment to subwoofer amplification.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by amacksco » 23 Nov 2018 23:20

Sterling1 wrote:
06 Aug 2018 14:44
For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
Actually most CD audio starts at 20Hz. which would match most domestic amplifier systems. (and the human ear). However the real low end audio the stuff that rattles windows etc you need a very powerful amplifier because it tends to sustain for quite some time beyond most music notes. 80s super fi Japan had some amps that were quoted as DC. but be careful for what you wish for it brings with it a whole load of nasties including blowing speaker voice coils, record cueing that will bring tears to your eyes, non flat records and holes in records not in the centre, foot fall nightmares. The main issue is if the speaker is producing audio down to the single figure Hz it will require a lot of amp energy, and likewise speaker cone movement which may swamp the the other audio that is in the audible range.