Adding a giant subwoofer

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hobie1dog
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by hobie1dog » 06 Nov 2018 01:57

You just don't get very much displacement with a woofer that small, and 100 watts is extremely underpowering most any driver out there. You need wattage to drive bigger voice coils, and again it's all about the displacement. A 10" woofer grabs very little air in the world of subwoofers , unless it can move 4 inches peak to peak of travel. You need to be looking at a 15 or 18 inch driver and a 500 watt amp minimum. JMHO

IRG
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 06 Nov 2018 14:15

hobie1dog wrote:
06 Nov 2018 01:57
You just don't get very much displacement with a woofer that small, and 100 watts is extremely underpowering most any driver out there. You need wattage to drive bigger voice coils, and again it's all about the displacement. A 10" woofer grabs very little air in the world of subwoofers , unless it can move 4 inches peak to peak of travel. You need to be looking at a 15 or 18 inch driver and a 500 watt amp minimum. JMHO

I agree that 100w seems underpowered. Although with a digital amp maybe not. But I disagree that you need a 15 or 18 subwoofer, lol. That would so overpower my small room it wouldn't be usable. The 10" I have now hits pretty hard and low, and I know I don't necessarily need more than that. Maybe 12", max.

I seldom even see most subs touting 15-18" subs, custom designs maybe? If I had a cavernous living room, it might be fun, but otherwise total overkill for my needs.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 06 Nov 2018 15:21

IRG wrote:
06 Nov 2018 14:15
hobie1dog wrote:
06 Nov 2018 01:57
You just don't get very much displacement with a woofer that small, and 100 watts is extremely underpowering most any driver out there. You need wattage to drive bigger voice coils, and again it's all about the displacement. A 10" woofer grabs very little air in the world of subwoofers , unless it can move 4 inches peak to peak of travel. You need to be looking at a 15 or 18 inch driver and a 500 watt amp minimum. JMHO

I agree that 100w seems underpowered. Although with a digital amp maybe not. But I disagree that you need a 15 or 18 subwoofer, lol. That would so overpower my small room it wouldn't be usable. The 10" I have now hits pretty hard and low, and I know I don't necessarily need more than that. Maybe 12", max.

I seldom even see most subs touting 15-18" subs, custom designs maybe? If I had a cavernous living room, it might be fun, but otherwise total overkill for my needs.
The reason you seldom see 15"/18" subs is because you are not getting out enough. The 15" and 18" subs give listeners a sense of bass volume without sounding loud in residential installations. These do require a lot of power, since, without much power, clipping will produce a sound from the sub like a sledge hammer hitting a steel pylon. My JBL B-380's 15" driver is powered by a 560 watt amp which is not too much. It gets the last octave out of music, which small subs, bookshelf, and even full range floor standing speakers do not.
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IRG
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 06 Nov 2018 16:28

I'm not saying I wouldn't want one, lol. But size wise, it just doesn't work for me. I know the physics is challenging; small enclosure, deep bass, but some sort of compromise is what I have to deal with (let alone budget).

There is this one, also from Dayton that is a 15", but only 150w. I'm not necessarily needing huge volume overall, room just doesn't allow for it. But for the price, maybe it's worth considering? https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... uctDetails

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by hobie1dog » 06 Nov 2018 20:25

You must remember that the larger the woofer diameter, the more displacement, and the less throw so the voice coil always stays in the gap and remains very low distortion, also giving more punch to the music. The inductance of the woofer determines the speed/ tightness of the bass. A big woofer with very low inductance will sound twice as tight as a small woofer with high inductance. Cheap woofers usually have small coils, weak spiders, small magnets/ low motor force all adding up to the same comparison as a weak spring, one that bounces many times after you push down on it. Fast transient response s the ability for the woofer to be pushed out and return, and stopping. The kids with boomy car bass have woofers that never return to their resting spot before the next hit comes, along with always buying very cheap woofers that have weak motors/loose suspensions.

The lower wattage amp you use the more likely that it will go into clipping on big transient hits, which will burn up your voice coil.

Everyone should read the paper by Dan Wiggins on woofer speed:
http://web.archive.org/web/200404032057 ... _speed.htm

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 10 Nov 2018 02:48

Got the Dayton 15" tonight. I gotta say, it seems pretty damn awesome. I'll have to play around with settings and more, but it seems easy to dial in so far, and it works great in my room. Power isn't an issue at all, not for my needs at least. Very happy for $200. And I got it with free shipping in about 48 hours. Can't beat that.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 10 Nov 2018 20:44

Please keep us informed how it sounds after you've had it for a while.

VinylKaraib
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by VinylKaraib » 11 Nov 2018 13:32

jc_the_trucker wrote:
03 Aug 2018 20:59
I know, heresy to some. However I have the opportunity to purchase an SVS subwoofer from my dad at a darn reasonable price. I could have bought it off him a lot sooner, but I couldn’t think up a way to hook it into my system since I really don’t want to spend money on a pre-amp any time soon. So as I was driving across Oklahoma today the thought randomly popped into my head that all I would really need is a crossover that has rca jacks for its ins and outs. Having googled, I found this little guy that seems like it would fit the bill:

https://www.parts-express.com/rolls-sx4 ... mpaign=pla

My question is, has anyone had experience with that particular device? Could anyone recommend something similar at around the same price point that might do the job better? Am I absolutely insane for wanting a 1000 watt 12 inch sub in my system?


Hello ,

If I can afford to intervene, Basically, when you are passionate about hifi, homecinema ... it is necessarily a little crazy! 😂!

After all depends on several factors, your listening room, your use (hifi or Homecinema or both), the quality you expect from a subwoofer! The quality that can be expected from a subwoofer in pure hifi is not the same as for a homecinema system! Some Subwoofers are very good in Homecinema and much less, see bad in hifi! The amount of watts of a subwoofer, is not synonymous with quality! In other words, a subwoofer of 100 watts can be much better than another of 1000 watts! If it helps ... ☺️

Gravitar8
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Gravitar8 » 11 Nov 2018 14:29

Case in point: I was astounded yesterday when I played (original release) The Beatles Revolver LP. The PSB sub worked hard!
Alec124c41 wrote:
07 Aug 2018 04:30
Sterling1 wrote:For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
Sterling, you need some better vinyl. ;)

Cheers,
Alec

JoeE SP9
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 11 Nov 2018 15:23

VinylKaraib wrote:
11 Nov 2018 13:32
jc_the_trucker wrote:
03 Aug 2018 20:59
I know, heresy to some. However I have the opportunity to purchase an SVS subwoofer from my dad at a darn reasonable price. I could have bought it off him a lot sooner, but I couldn’t think up a way to hook it into my system since I really don’t want to spend money on a pre-amp any time soon. So as I was driving across Oklahoma today the thought randomly popped into my head that all I would really need is a crossover that has rca jacks for its ins and outs. Having googled, I found this little guy that seems like it would fit the bill:

https://www.parts-express.com/rolls-sx4 ... mpaign=pla

My question is, has anyone had experience with that particular device? Could anyone recommend something similar at around the same price point that might do the job better? Am I absolutely insane for wanting a 1000 watt 12 inch sub in my system?


Hello ,

If I can afford to intervene, Basically, when you are passionate about hifi, homecinema ... it is necessarily a little crazy! 😂!

After all depends on several factors, your listening room, your use (hifi or Homecinema or both), the quality you expect from a subwoofer! The quality that can be expected from a subwoofer in pure hifi is not the same as for a homecinema system! Some Subwoofers are very good in Homecinema and much less, see bad in hifi! The amount of watts of a subwoofer, is not synonymous with quality! In other words, a subwoofer of 100 watts can be much better than another of 1000 watts! If it helps ... ☺️
For the same amount of money they're asking for that rather primitive looking crossover you can get a Behringer CX-2310. It's a two way stereo three way mono crossover. In two way mode the crossover frequency can be anywhere from 40Hz to 4KHz. It has XLR connectors. RCA to XLR adaptors are inexpensive and work just fine. I use one with my surround speakers to drive a pair of Adcom GFA-545's and an unpowered dual sub at an 80Hz crossovers.

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-CX2310 ... ger+cx2310

Sweetwater and B&H Photo have it for the same price as Amazon. Guitar center has some open box ones for $70.


FWIW: The bridged Crowns that drive my two 12" TL subs produce 900 Watts each.

IRG
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 11 Nov 2018 17:33

I'll give a quick update here on the Dayton 15" subwoofer. First, after ordering it on a Wednesday night, I got (shipping free) on Friday! Helps they're in Ohio, and I'm in upstate NY.

So far so good. Sounds really good in my application. Which is just music, a combination of vinyl and CD's. I just got the new release of Tom Morello's The Atlas Underground. If you liked him in Rage Against the Machine, this is a very different type of endeavor. Think EDM meets guitars. A terrific album overall. And boy is there heavy bass content on this record. My room explodes with low end, in a good way.

So I would disagree with Sterling1 on no bass content on vinyl. It really depends on the recording. But even stuff that generally would be less associated with subwoofer dependent, it can be there too, maybe more subtle.

I have my Dayton sub position right next to my listening chair. Doing double duty as an end table, lol. But what's great this location, is that I can reach right over, and adjust the gain and crossover point whenever necessary without ever leaving my listening position. It's also close to one corner of my room, but with enough air to breathe around it. It is basically on the opposite wall of my main speakers. I wasn't sure if this would be an issue or not. I actually prefer it. Before with my JBL sub, I had it right near my other speakers and it was a cluttered mess and I can almost pinpoint where the bass was coming from. Now it just seems to fill the room, while letting the main speakers (ELAC Debut 2 6.2) do their thing.

I have the volume set mostly at about noon, crossover point not too high, maybe half way or less. I'm trying not to have too much upper bass come from the sub, really using it just as an extension for the Elacs.

The amp is rated at 150w which while not a lot, seems sufficient to me right now. My room is small, so it works. If using it for home theater and a large room, maybe 2 of these would be needed. So far for my needs it is working out very well. And $200 seems like a great value (looks nice too).

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 11 Nov 2018 20:42

The easiest way to tell if a subwoofer is correctly adjusted is to listen. If you can tell you have a subwoofer it's most likely too loud. The only time you should be able to tell you have a subwoofer is when you turn it off. The loss of deep bass should be easily audible.

Most people who adjust a sub by ear almost always have it too loud. Many also use a crossover point that's too high. For a crossover point start at the -3dB point of the main speakers. As for the level adjustment, turn it down until you can barely hear it. Then turn it down another notch. That should get you fairly close to what measurements will give you.

Once a subwoofer is dialed in correctly there should be no need to adjust it for varying source material or different listening levels.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by LD100 » 11 Nov 2018 21:58

JoeE SP9 wrote:
11 Nov 2018 20:42
Once a sub woofer is dialed in correctly there should be no need to adjust it for varying source material or different listening levels.
+1

Set mine up using tone generator, spl meter and sweep frequency test over 15 years ago, haven't touched it since. :D

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Gravitar8 » 11 Nov 2018 22:49

For critical listening subject to personal taste...yes but not the case for home theater/audio hybrid systems that have to do double duty. Case in point: the sub channel in Home Cinema is called LFE which means Low Frequency Effect. Effects are meant to be very noticeable.
JoeE SP9 wrote:
11 Nov 2018 20:42
The easiest way to tell if a subwoofer is correctly adjusted is to listen. If you can tell you have a subwoofer it's most likely too loud. The only time you should be able to tell you have a subwoofer is when you turn it off. The loss of deep bass should be easily audible.

Most people who adjust a sub by ear almost always have it too loud. Many also use a crossover point that's too high. For a crossover point start at the -3dB point of the main speakers. As for the level adjustment, turn it down until you can barely hear it. Then turn it down another notch. That should get you fairly close to what measurements will give you.

Once a subwoofer is dialed in correctly there should be no need to adjust it for varying source material or different listening levels.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by LD100 » 11 Nov 2018 23:01

Gravitar8 wrote:
11 Nov 2018 22:49
For critical listening subject to personal taste...yes but not the case for home theater/audio hybrid systems that have to do double duty. Case in point: the sub channel in Home Cinema is called LFE which means Low Frequency Effect. Effects are meant to be very noticeable.
Indeed, I have always found movie directors, in consultation with their sound coordinators, do an excellent job emphasizing depth charge explosions, dinosaur foot steps, etc., so that no adjustment is necessary on my end. =D>