Adding a giant subwoofer

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 31 Oct 2018 16:34

JoeE SP9 wrote:
31 Oct 2018 15:40
Open E on a four string electric bass is 41.2Hz.
For 5 and 6 string basses the open B string is 30.8Hz.

If you use measurements for adjusting bass level and crossover frequency there should be no need of further and constant adjustment.

Reference level for most theater sound in the home is 85dB. If you use the same reference level for music (many do) the subwoofer will always be at the correct level for music and HT once dialed in. One of the very good things about many HT receivers is the auto equalization they provide. This sets the bass level at the level it's supposed to be.

Setting the bass to be flat at 85dB is applicable to music and HT equally.

If you don't measure it's nothing but a crapshoot.

If more people read manuals and followed directions there wouldn't be an issue about subwoofer levels.
Your conclusions might work at "reference" level or for that matter any "go-to" volume; but, it does not preclude the need to adjust bass volume when listening to music at a realitively low volume, requiring a bass boost for any recognition of bass at all. I know this as a dance music enthusiest.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5092
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 31 Oct 2018 16:58

I think you missed my major point. That is, flat is flat. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the source is music or a movie.

What do you think tone controls or a loudness switch or variable loudness control are for? This is why I prefer a variable loudness control as on current Yamaha amplifiers. Although my ARC SP-9 has no tone controls I sometimes wish it had the variable loudness control my lamented ARC SP-3 had. It's (SP-3) worth more than three+ times what it cost me in 1978.

I just measured the level I'm at while watching TV. It's ~80dB. With a system that's flat at 85dB things sound quite good to me at 80dB. Perhaps I would feel different under different circumstances. I live alone and play whatever I want at any volume I desire and am comfortable with. Music and movies are usually played at ~95dB max SPL's.

FWIW: I use REW, a calibrated mic and a DSP to achieve flatter response at reference level in my dedicated acoustically treated room. I rarely listen to my main rig regardless of source at anything lower than 75dB.

PS: I also have four subs.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 31 Oct 2018 18:43

JoeE SP9 wrote:
31 Oct 2018 16:58
I think you missed my major point. That is, flat is flat. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the source is music or a movie.

What do you think tone controls or a loudness switch or variable loudness control are for? This is why I prefer a variable loudness control as on current Yamaha amplifiers. Although my ARC SP-9 has no tone controls I sometimes wish it had the variable loudness control my lamented ARC SP-3 had. It's (SP-3) worth more than three+ times what it cost me in 1978.

I just measured the level I'm at while watching TV. It's ~80dB. With a system that's flat at 85dB things sound quite good to me at 80dB. Perhaps I would feel different under different circumstances. I live alone and play whatever I want at any volume I desire and am comfortable with. Music and movies are usually played at ~95dB max SPL's.

FWIW: I use REW, a calibrated mic and a DSP to achieve flatter response at reference level in my dedicated acoustically treated room. I rarely listen to my main rig regardless of source at anything lower than 75dB.

PS: I also have four subs.
No, I didn't miss your major point. I don't miss anything. I'm a champion marksman. Here's a song with some low synthesized bass for ya. You can shuffle dance to it. I've heard you like to shuffle dance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHKBhXzAOs

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5092
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 01 Nov 2018 21:18

What the Hell is a shuffle dance? If that's some sort of slur it's uncalled for, offensive and completely unnecessary.

My system is measured to be -2dB at 18Hz. I have plenty of source material with extremely low frequencies. That includes the 32Hz organ pedals in Thus Spake Zarathustra, the bass drum in The Telarc Firebird (1919 Version), The Telarc 1812 on CD and vinyl and others such as a couple of Bass Mekanik CD's and Tomita's totally systhesizer based selections.

YouTube videos are highly compressed MP-3 files and frankly, don't sound very good. So, no, I'm not interested.

That listening below a reference level requires some tonal tweaking is a normal state of affairs. The actual level of the signal going to the sub woofer should need no further adjustment once dialed in. The loudness control and tone controls should be more than adequate for compensation for differing volume levels below reference. Besides, unless the sub has a remote control it's a royal PITA to get up and adjust it every time you change the volume.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 01 Nov 2018 21:49

JoeE SP9 wrote:
01 Nov 2018 21:18
What the Hell is a shuffle dance? If that's some sort of slur it's uncalled for, offensive and completely unnecessary.

My system is measured to be -2dB at 18Hz. I have plenty of source material with extremely low frequencies. That includes the 32Hz organ pedals in Thus Spake Zarathustra, the bass drum in The Telarc Firebird (1919 Version), The Telarc 1812 on CD and vinyl and others such as a couple of Bass Mekanik CD's and Tomita's totally systhesizer based selections.

YouTube videos are highly compressed MP-3 files and frankly, don't sound very good. So, no, I'm not interested.

That listening below a reference level requires some tonal tweaking is a normal state of affairs. The actual level of the signal going to the sub woofer should need no further adjustment once dialed in. The loudness control and tone controls should be more than adequate for compensation for differing volume levels below reference. Besides, unless the sub has a remote control it's a royal PITA to get up and adjust it every time you change the volume.
Slur ?
I would never slur any one here, especially not an old man such as myself. Shuffle dancing is fun dancing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDWFVI8PQOI. Check it out, and do check out the music I linked too. Its synthetic bass goes way, way down. Its the lowest you will ever hear. All fun stuff, but ya gotta loosen up a little bit man. You're too tight. After all, this is just fun stuff. With 4 subs you should be havin' a lot of fun with whatever genres of music you have a passion for. I've only got one sub. It's all I can afford, got it back in 1986 and it worked great until about 3 years ago when the foam surround disintegrated. I had to go without bass for about 2 weeks. It made me realize how the bass really adds to the pleasure. At any rate, have a great day! I hope the weather is better in your neighborhood than it is in mine today.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5092
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 02 Nov 2018 02:35

The temperature was in the mid 60's in Phila. today. It was a lovely day.

Shuffle dancing is unknown in my community.

I mentioned Bass Mekanik because it's used by car stereo people to demonstrate how low their creations can go.

As for dancing, as a Black man I found out long ago that to get favors from Black women I had to dance. Consequently I learned to Bop. The Bop is a mainstay dance in the black community. When I was growing up if you couldn't Bop you got no female companionship. Bop is a relative of swing dancing which I can also do. Incidentally, I actually dislike dancing. I just happen to be a very horny guy even at 71. No, I don't take the Blue pill.

Why do so many women love dancing?

FWIW: Phoebe Snow's No Regrets is possibly the greatest Bop tune ever recorded. When bars had jukeboxes it was on the jukebox of every Black bar I ever went to. It probably still is.

My neighbors tell me they can easily hear the bass from my system. They also say it doesn't sound anything like what they hear from those rolling distortion boxes (cars).

sturgus
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 557
Joined: 29 Aug 2002 05:01
Location: St. louis Mo.

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by sturgus » 02 Nov 2018 03:22

Hey Joe, I can relate. If you didn't learn to bop you were going to be by yourself. My sister was married and out of the house by the time I needed to learn to dance. My best friend sister taught me after quite a few lessons. Man you just gave me a trip back in time. Thank you for that 8)

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 02 Nov 2018 13:01

JoeE SP9 wrote:
02 Nov 2018 02:35
The temperature was in the mid 60's in Phila. today. It was a lovely day.

Shuffle dancing is unknown in my community.

I mentioned Bass Mekanik because it's used by car stereo people to demonstrate how low their creations can go.

As for dancing, as a Black man I found out long ago that to get favors from Black women I had to dance. Consequently I learned to Bop. The Bop is a mainstay dance in the black community. When I was growing up if you couldn't Bop you got no female companionship. Bop is a relative of swing dancing which I can also do. Incidentally, I actually dislike dancing. I just happen to be a very horny guy even at 71. No, I don't take the Blue pill.

Why do so many women love dancing?

FWIW: Phoebe Snow's No Regrets is possibly the greatest Bop tune ever recorded. When bars had jukeboxes it was on the jukebox of every Black bar I ever went to. It probably still is.

My neighbors tell me they can easily hear the bass from my system. They also say it doesn't sound anything like what they hear from those rolling distortion boxes (cars).
Great story.

reynolds753
junior member
junior member
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 May 2017 21:54

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by reynolds753 » 02 Nov 2018 21:25

I had to google "shuffle dancing". I had never heard of it before.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 03 Nov 2018 16:03

reynolds753 wrote:
02 Nov 2018 21:25
I had to google "shuffle dancing". I had never heard of it before.
I enjoy watching and listening to the KM Music videos on YouTube of shuffle dancing to 80's re-mixed dance music. It's fun. Sometimes gets me out of my E-Z Chair to join in, while nobody is watching me. MC Hammer's What Is Love is the best. Check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPmBnnon0Ek

jc_the_trucker
senior member
senior member
Posts: 672
Joined: 08 Jan 2012 22:40
Location: who knows...

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by jc_the_trucker » 05 Nov 2018 15:52

I like to say that I have about 18 left feet. But if I wanted to there’s a line dancing club here in the neighborhood. I’m sure all the old women would just be happy to see a man under forty! :lol: I just bought some new boots over in Nocona so I’m all set, I’ll put some hank snow on the tt and get ready! I’m sure the sub will make a huge difference!

Side note, heard a set of klipschorns for the first time at the brewery out there. What a speaker! The beer was pretty good too!

IRG
member
member
Posts: 41
Joined: 08 Sep 2018 01:15

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by IRG » 05 Nov 2018 17:20

If I can piggyback off of this thread, instead of starting a new one, I'll try.

So similarly, I have a small room, and a decent 2 channel system I'm building slowly but surely. Nothing high end here, but so far it sounds quite good. Room is small, 12x10ish. It serves as a guitar room, and my stereo.

I've been on the fence about adding a sub. My amp is a Musical Fidelity integrated, which has pre outs on it. Speakers on ELAC Debut 2 6.2 on stands. I realized I had an old sub I wasn't using anymore, a 20 year old JBL PB-10. These had a reputation of either being decent, or failing early on. Mine apparently wasn't one of those, lol. But it is a bit beat up, and something new would be nice, without breaking the bank.

I've been looking at the Dayton subs at Parts Express. This one, 10", 100w (I'm guess class D) for $109 shipped, is hard to beat. Unless it's crap of course, but the reviews are all pretty good https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... r--300-628

I'm realizing, with my amp, I should just get a pair of 6-10' RCA cables and hook it up to the L/R inputs on the sub, correct?

I got Tom Morello's new album over the weekend. Holy crap, if there was ever a reason to get a sub for vinyl, this is it. I was surprised how well it integrated with the rest of the system. But I think getting a new sub could take it up a notch, or at least not be a downgrade, and it will look tons better too.

Anyone try these Dayton subs?

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 806
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 05 Nov 2018 17:45

jc_the_trucker wrote:
05 Nov 2018 15:52
I like to say that I have about 18 left feet. But if I wanted to there’s a line dancing club here in the neighborhood. I’m sure all the old women would just be happy to see a man under forty! :lol: I just bought some new boots over in Nocona so I’m all set, I’ll put some hank snow on the tt and get ready! I’m sure the sub will make a huge difference!

Side note, heard a set of klipschorns for the first time at the brewery out there. What a speaker! The beer was pretty good too!
I like the Rolling Stones cover of Hank Snow's "I'm Movin' On". :wink: BTW, it's on the top of my list of favorite songs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1hZ1-fNstc

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5092
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 05 Nov 2018 20:39

IRG wrote:
05 Nov 2018 17:20
If I can piggyback off of this thread, instead of starting a new one, I'll try.

So similarly, I have a small room, and a decent 2 channel system I'm building slowly but surely. Nothing high end here, but so far it sounds quite good. Room is small, 12x10ish. It serves as a guitar room, and my stereo.

I've been on the fence about adding a sub. My amp is a Musical Fidelity integrated, which has pre outs on it. Speakers on ELAC Debut 2 6.2 on stands. I realized I had an old sub I wasn't using anymore, a 20 year old JBL PB-10. These had a reputation of either being decent, or failing early on. Mine apparently wasn't one of those, lol. But it is a bit beat up, and something new would be nice, without breaking the bank.

I've been looking at the Dayton subs at Parts Express. This one, 10", 100w (I'm guess class D) for $109 shipped, is hard to beat. Unless it's crap of course, but the reviews are all pretty good https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... r--300-628

I'm realizing, with my amp, I should just get a pair of 6-10' RCA cables and hook it up to the L/R inputs on the sub, correct?

I got Tom Morello's new album over the weekend. Holy crap, if there was ever a reason to get a sub for vinyl, this is it. I was surprised how well it integrated with the rest of the system. But I think getting a new sub could take it up a notch, or at least not be a downgrade, and it will look tons better too.

Anyone try these Dayton subs?
I know a couple of people using Dayton Subs (Sub 1000 and Sub 1200). IMO/E when set up properly they can't be beat for the money.

IME the only speakers that won't/don't benefit from the addition of a subwoofer(s) are assaults on the state of the art or those that already have a built in powered sub (s)

For many enthusiasts speakers such as AR-3's or NLA's that go relatively deep are thought to not need a subwoofer. I don't necessarily agree with that. After living with subs (2 x 12" TL) that are equalized flat to ~18Hz @ 85dBA @ 9' I'd be the last person to discount subwoofers.

FWIW: I also use a powered Monoprice 8" sub with Pioneer SP-BS22's (fronts) a Dayton CC and Minimus 7's (surrounds) in my bedroom. A Yamaha HT receiver drives them.

Coffee Phil
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5776
Joined: 20 Sep 2008 08:22
Location: California

Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Coffee Phil » 05 Nov 2018 22:40

Hi jc_the_trucker,

Giant 12" subwoofer? OK, I'm going to brag! This is the sub in the ceiling of my stereo room:

gallery/image/22201/medium

That is an ElectroVoice 30W. It dates from a day when a 1000 Watt amp would be very expensive. At 105 dB/Watt a 45 Watt MOS FET amp is entirely sufficient.

Actually I believe that what you have if set up properly will do a fine job. Downstairs in the family I have a couple of 12" subs infinitely baffled in the ceiling and they will easily get to 20 Hz and do a fine job. I do however drive them with a bigger amp. It is an Adcom 5400 which is no where close to your 1000 watts. I think it is ~ 200 W / channel. I have a crossover between the preamp and the main amps. I'm using 80 Hz and 6 dB/octave. I like first order crossovers. The plan is for the big guy upstairs to also cross @ 6 dB/octave but at a lower frequency as it will be crossing to the 12" main woofers in my AMT 1s. All that is still a work in progress. The big woofer was also in my last house crossed to my
Tempest 3s at 80Hz. The 12" subs seem more seamless with the little Tempests than the big sub was, but I think the big guy will be fine upstairs crossed @ ~50 Hz.

Phil


jc_the_trucker wrote:
03 Aug 2018 20:59
I know, heresy to some. However I have the opportunity to purchase an SVS subwoofer from my dad at a darn reasonable price. I could have bought it off him a lot sooner, but I couldn’t think up a way to hook it into my system since I really don’t want to spend money on a pre-amp any time soon. So as I was driving across Oklahoma today the thought randomly popped into my head that all I would really need is a crossover that has rca jacks for its ins and outs. Having googled, I found this little guy that seems like it would fit the bill:

https://www.parts-express.com/rolls-sx4 ... mpaign=pla

My question is, has anyone had experience with that particular device? Could anyone recommend something similar at around the same price point that might do the job better? Am I absolutely insane for wanting a 1000 watt 12 inch sub in my system?