Adding a giant subwoofer

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
balky
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by balky » 09 Aug 2018 12:37

Alec124c41 wrote:
Sterling1 wrote:For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
Sterling, you need some better vinyl. ;)

Cheers,
Alec
And a nice / decent cart + a capable Phono pre-amp...

JoeE SP9
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 09 Aug 2018 20:56

Alec124c41 wrote:The electric bass hits about 43 Hz, sometimes 37.

Cheers,
Alec
Close. Open E on a four string electric bass is 41.2Hz. For five or six string basses the B string is at 30.8Hz. As popular as 5 and 6 string basses have become for popular music it would make sense to have a system that is reasonably flat to 30Hz.

Alec124c41
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Alec124c41 » 09 Aug 2018 21:37

The app on my iPhone shows 43 and 32. The app is useful, but not that accurate.
It sure is nice to hear those notes.

Cheers,
Elec

Sterling1
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Aug 2018 01:32

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balky wrote:
Alec124c41 wrote:
Sterling1 wrote:For greatest satisfaction, the means to crossover your left and right channel low frequency drivers at about 60Hz will assure sub's proper integration. Interestingly enough, for most genres of music recorded to vinyl there's not enough subwoofer content to make the sub useful. In other words, when engaged the music is not effected by the sub's presence. I have a JBL B-380 powered with a 560 watt amp. It adds dimension to some music on CD but rarely from vinyl.
Sterling, you need some better vinyl. ;)

Cheers,
Alec
And a nice / decent cart + a capable Phono pre-amp...
Well, let's look at what I've got: Shure V15V-MR, Sony TA-E9000ES Pre/Pro, Sony TA-N80ES 560 watt amp to power JBL-B380 Sub. With this gear I can get all the bass there is in the groove to get, down to 20Hz at a volume as great as I can stand. But, I've gotta tell ya, there's more to get from CDs of same material as recorded to vinyl; plus, there's more dance music on CD out there than has been recorded to vinyl. I didn't just get into this with the vinyl resurgance wave. I've enjoyed my sub for music pleasure for about 32 years. That's from a time when the CD was just beginning to excersise its muscle to produce bass and companies like JBL committed to bring subs to the market which could deliver that low end that their full range speakers could not. At any rate, it's all good and I highly recommend Kayne West's Love Lockdown (CD or Stream) for anyone who is interested in pumping up the bass. Warning: underpowered subs will be damaged if too much volume is applied, proceed with caution. An amp clipping on a sub sounds like a sledge hammer pounding on a steel pylon.

Alec124c41
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Alec124c41 » 10 Aug 2018 03:12

Just kidding, sterling.
I'm not much interested in rap or modern "dance music." I'm too old to want to get agitated.
I have "Water Falls" on vinyl, by Sara K. There is some growly bass on that.

Cheers,
Alec

Sterling1
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 10 Aug 2018 09:37

Alec124c41 wrote:Just kidding, sterling.
I'm not much interested in rap or modern "dance music." I'm too old to want to get agitated.
I have "Water Falls" on vinyl, by Sara K. There is some growly bass on that.

Cheers,
Alec
I'm perhaps too old; but, just the other day I saw a YouTube Video from KM Music of shuffle dancers moving to Snap's Rhythm Is A Dancer, which made me think I need to learn how to do that. My broken wrist, and recent eye surgery was saying something else. At any rate, you're a neat guy, highly qualified to profess on most any matter I'm sure. I'll give you a pass on dance music. Do check out KM Music though, it may have you moving too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDWFVI8PQOI

Alec124c41
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Alec124c41 » 10 Aug 2018 14:39

Cute kids. But I could be their grampa. ;)

Cheers,
Alec

JoeE SP9
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 10 Aug 2018 17:49

Alec124c41 wrote:The app on my iPhone shows 43 and 32. The app is useful, but not that accurate.
It sure is nice to hear those notes.

Cheers,
Elec
I get to hear both tones frequently. Four and six string electric bases are in my colletion along with an old German upright and an Ampeg Baby Bass.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by jc_the_trucker » 25 Aug 2018 16:01

All I can say is I should have done this a long time ago. My system was never bass shy, but unloading the tubes has made a huge difference. Obviously, a 12" powered sub has added a lot of additional bass. More importantly, the system over all seems to be able to go even louder than before with less distortion. Clarity in the mids and highs has gone from great to exceptional. As for the crossover itself, it works perfectly. It isn't the quietest device, but noticable noise is well past clipping on the input side and well below the noise floor of any record, and most recordings in general. I kinda wish it had an off switch, but I guess it probably doesn't draw a whole lot of power.

I currently have the crossover set at about 85 hz and the gain knob on the sub just past halfway. It may be a tad bass heavy, but I haven't decided yet. The sub isn't positioned in its permanent home yet either, so once that happens I'll fiddle with it some more. I think 85 hz is about right though, even though SVS recommends 60 hz and 24db of roll off. The cross is fixed at 12 db of roll off, so perhaps the higher frequency is better for a smooth transition? I'm not too sure on that, it's just where I ended up while experimenting. If anyone has a recommendation on that, I'd be happy to try it out. I guess I could use the frequency response test on my old test record to tune it by ear.

LD100
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by LD100 » 30 Aug 2018 09:15

Congratulations on acquiring your sub. I have had a SVS PB12-Plus/2 for about 15 years and I can't say enough good things about it. No problems what so ever. =D>

Regarding set up, both your frequency and gain seem a little high, but those settings depend on your room acoustics and the bottom end on your main speakers, so you're probably in the ball park.

You know you hit the right settings when you can't hear any sound actually coming from the sub. You just feel the lower bass and the bass coming from your main speakers will be most impressive. =D>

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 30 Aug 2018 11:59

jc_the_trucker wrote:All I can say is I should have done this a long time ago. My system was never bass shy, but unloading the tubes has made a huge difference. Obviously, a 12" powered sub has added a lot of additional bass. More importantly, the system over all seems to be able to go even louder than before with less distortion. Clarity in the mids and highs has gone from great to exceptional. As for the crossover itself, it works perfectly. It isn't the quietest device, but noticable noise is well past clipping on the input side and well below the noise floor of any record, and most recordings in general. I kinda wish it had an off switch, but I guess it probably doesn't draw a whole lot of power.

I currently have the crossover set at about 85 hz and the gain knob on the sub just past halfway. It may be a tad bass heavy, but I haven't decided yet. The sub isn't positioned in its permanent home yet either, so once that happens I'll fiddle with it some more. I think 85 hz is about right though, even though SVS recommends 60 hz and 24db of roll off. The cross is fixed at 12 db of roll off, so perhaps the higher frequency is better for a smooth transition? I'm not too sure on that, it's just where I ended up while experimenting. If anyone has a recommendation on that, I'd be happy to try it out. I guess I could use the frequency response test on my old test record to tune it by ear.
Setting the sub at 60Hz will relieve the mains and over all sound might sound better, why not just experiment? As alluded to by others, when the sub is set correctly you will not sense that it has been properly integrated but listening will reveal that it has. The best test record, CD or SACD that I have to test bass being set properly is Diana Krall's Love Scenes. If bass volume is set too high the bass violen will present itself in front of the vocals. Simply adjusting subs amp gain you can get the bass violen behind the vocals.

jc_the_trucker
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by jc_the_trucker » 30 Aug 2018 15:34

Thanks! Very happy with it here. Figured out the model number as well PC 20-39 PCi.

I did download a sound analyzer for my phone. I ran the the spectrum analyzer on it set to c weighting as prescribed by the svs manual, and ran the frequency sweep tests on my ancient (1963) test record. With the exception of a minor, approximately 3 dB drop around 180 hz, I got it to be nearly dead flat all the way down to around 40 hz. It drops significantly below that, but I tend to think that's more a function of the cartridge (DL 103) than the sub. The bottom sweep was still quite audible, just about 10 dB lower.

I ended up raising the crossover frequency to about 90 or 95 hz, the high out to about 2:30, the low out to backed off to 12:00 and backed of the sub gain a hair to get those results.

I then ran some pipe organ, Bachs Tocata and Fugue in D-minor played by Karl Richter on Duetche Grammophon. I picked it because I have the LP and it was also readily available on Apple Music.

It sounds very good, the change over is seamless and the high end is absolutely wide open. The deep reeded pipes sound spectacular as the reed plays in the high end and the tone is mostly handled by the sub. Trying it both formats yielded nearly identical results on the spectrum analyzer, passages of equal volume were nearly flat all the way across the board. More importantly, the impression of being in an old church was uncanny. Obviously each format has its advantages and disadvantages, some surface noise from the LP, some artifacting in the digital source. Both on the silent part of the track right before Karl winds up. But the music was just as enjoyable both ways.

Then I switched to Amused to Death, because the Q Sound effects are absolutely nuts. Unfortunately I only have the Apple Music version, but it's still pretty good. I absolutely tripped out on the effects, vocals were dead center, and the various instruments were in front at various locations across the "stage". Sound effects were all over the room, for example the dripping tap in Late Home Tonight were off behind me to the left somewhere. Absolutely crazy!

Last test was a very old CD, also from Deutsche Grammophon, of the Chicago Symphony doing the 1812 Overture (1982, "made in West Germany" on the label). I like this one because it has the most realistic cannon fire of the four recordings I have, and also the best orchestration. Learned from this that I need to damp the doors on the cabinets at the back of the room. Oh yeah, and it sounded really cool too.

Anyway sorry to be a bit long winded. Unfortunately for me, I did discover that the tape ins on my old Yamaha receiver appear to have failed. So I guess I'll need one more piece of equipment to have all of my sources easily available. That's life I guess. I'm not sure where I want to go with that, kit pre, solid state, tubes, big brands, or what. I rarely use the CD player so it's not a big deal right now.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by hobie1dog » 31 Oct 2018 01:36

I thought you were going to be talking about a big subwoofer. 12 inch driver is really small in todays world.

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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by Sterling1 » 31 Oct 2018 15:03

Here's a tune with bass that goes down to about 24Hz. I use it occasionally to adjust my (JBL B-380 powered by 560 watt Sony TA-N80ES), which goes down to 24Hz-6db. My mains are set to crossover at 60Hz. Running sub at half gain with pre/pro running -2.0 db for sub I have the ability to fine tune gain of sub's amp for music or movies which could use a little more or a little less bass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRgKAiCCXKQ

JoeE SP9
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Re: Adding a giant subwoofer

Post by JoeE SP9 » 31 Oct 2018 15:40

Open E on a four string electric bass is 41.2Hz.
For 5 and 6 string basses the open B string is 30.8Hz.

If you use measurements for adjusting bass level and crossover frequency there should be no need of further and constant adjustment.

Reference level for most theater sound in the home is 85dB. If you use the same reference level for music (many do) the subwoofer will always be at the correct level for music and HT once dialed in. One of the very good things about many HT receivers is the auto equalization they provide. This sets the bass level at the level it's supposed to be.

Setting the bass to be flat at 85dB is applicable to music and HT equally.

If you don't measure it's nothing but a crapshoot.

If more people read manuals and followed directions there wouldn't be an issue about subwoofer levels.