speaker wire ?

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
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justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 14 Jun 2018 15:41

No, I didn't measure it, it's logic, heavier gauge wire conducts more than smaller gauge.
Also, my amp is a 40yr old pro-amp, Soundcraftsmen A2502. My pre, a Jolida JD5T, has a couple of tubes in it. I listen mostly to vinyl(duh!) and my phono-pre is not the quietest out there. My cartridge is a 40yr old Shure/Realistic R47XT. OBVIOUSLY, my system doesn't have the 'blackest' background. Unless it was simply horrid, capacitance/inductance issues would likely not make themselves noticeable. And, you missed the single most important part of my post, the part where I said 'Your results may vary'.

JoeE SP9
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 14 Jun 2018 22:48

cafe latte wrote:
jdjohn wrote:Depends on the speakers and how many drivers are inside. Also depends on the size of the inductor coils, right? Wouldn't it be cumulative?

Maggie coils are about the diameter/gauge of a big paper clip, and there are LOTS of rows of them, several feet long. Seems prudent to have enough current in reserves to handle transients. Kind of like the fuel line in your car. For idling, the size of the fuel line is MORE than enough, but if you floor the accelerator, you'll need that fuel line to big enough to supply fuel to all the cylinders, and at the pressure that is needed.
I doubt they are that thick speaker voice coils at least. Just looked at some 300w ATC voice coils and they are nowhere near that thick.
From your post. My bold. And yes, Maggies and Acoustats need 200WPC to sound right. For larger Maggies that 200WPC is IMO/E a minimum.

justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 15 Jun 2018 03:34

bobber05, The banana and spade connectors make better contact with the terminals on both the amp and speakers. The bare copper I was using was thick enough, but didn't crush very flat in the terminals. The speaker wire terminations correct that. A larger contact area results in lower resistance, hence, better conductivity. The improvement in sound quality that I noticed was better bass response, slightly more extended highs, and a bit more depth to the soundstage. It was noticeable to me primarily, I think, because I am the only one who listens to it. And I listen a lot. If I were not so familiar with the sound, I probably wouldn't have been able to discern any difference.

Not worried about the flames or getting chewed on. I'm wearing my Nomex lined Kevlar reinforced stainless steel chain-mail underwear.

aardvarkash10
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by aardvarkash10 » 15 Jun 2018 03:40

justjed0001 wrote:No, I didn't measure it, it's logic, heavier gauge wire conducts more than smaller gauge.
At extremes, yes. At the operating current and voltage of a speaker, not so much. In fact, measurably (and therefore audibly) not at all in any practical sense

At 12g, your 10-ft speaker wire have a resistance of 0.0016 ohms each way, or 0.0032 ohms total.

At 10, they are 0.001 each way, 0.002 total.

In other words, they measure around 3 orders of magnitude LESS than the speaker itself. Or more specifically, they represent around 1/10,000 of the circuit resistance.

Or as close to none of the circuit resistance at all as makes no difference.

Don't make me calculate it in decibels and then compare that to the human ability to hear differences in decibels.

Its logic.

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 15 Jun 2018 03:59

Can't argue with that. Wouldn't even try. but I know what I heard, even if I shouldn't have heard it.

Speaker cables are in the same category as break-in/burn in. Tubes have to burn in, caps have to form, things have to warm up. Engineering says that after the first couple of seconds, the circuit is working pretty much as well as it is going to. But there IS such a thing as thermal equilibrium, and some circuits and/or parts simply take longer to achieve this than others. If you don't believe in burn-in or that I could hear a difference in wires in MY system, makes no difference to me...

LD100
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by LD100 » 15 Jun 2018 06:28

JoeE SP9 wrote: Maggies and Acoustats need 200WPC to sound right. For larger Maggies that 200WPC is IMO/E a minimum.
+1

I gave up trying to explain that electrostatic speakers appear to amplifiers as a capacitive load versus a resistive load from dynamic speakers. :oops:

My four stacked Crown Electrostatic ES212s are actively bi-amped by two 350 Watts/ channel McIntosh power amplifiers on the 2 Ohm output. I use around 25+ feet of 10 gauge plain copper wire as speaker wire. :D

Is this necessary for a nice hi-fi with a great pair of dynamic ATC speakers...no.

We (electrostatic and planar users) are just sharing our personal experience with our personal systems, not trying to tell you what you need with your systems.
If you ever decide to change to electrostatic speakers, you may find this experience and information helpful. =D>

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by cafe latte » 15 Jun 2018 07:18

LD100 wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: Maggies and Acoustats need 200WPC to sound right. For larger Maggies that 200WPC is IMO/E a minimum.
+1

I gave up trying to explain that electrostatic speakers appear to amplifiers as a capacitive load versus a resistive load from dynamic speakers. :oops:

My four stacked Crown Electrostatic ES212s are actively bi-amped by two 350 Watts/ channel McIntosh power amplifiers on the 2 Ohm output. I use around 25+ feet of 10 gauge plain copper wire as speaker wire. :D

Is this necessary for a nice hi-fi with a great pair of dynamic ATC speakers...no.

We (electrostatic and planar users) are just sharing our personal experience with our personal systems, not trying to tell you what you need with your systems.
If you ever decide to change to electrostatic speakers, you may find this experience and information helpful. =D>
I used to own electrostatic speaker so I am aware of the odd load they present that not all amps are happy with. My point is 200 watts is 200 watts no matter how you look at it.
Chris

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by aardvarkash10 » 16 Jun 2018 03:25

justjed0001 wrote:Can't argue with that. Wouldn't even try. but I know what I heard, even if I shouldn't have heard it.
I'm sure you heard it too - psycho-acoustics is a very real thing that impacts what and how all of us hear. I used to think it was worth arguing with people from a position that they mustn't have heard anything, that they had deluded themselves.

The reality is, we all hear what we want or expect to hear. We are hard-wired for this. So it's not delusion, its an innate part of the human condition
justjed0001 wrote:Speaker cables are in the same category as break-in/burn in. Tubes have to burn in, caps have to form, things have to warm up. Engineering says that after the first couple of seconds, the circuit is working pretty much as well as it is going to. But there IS such a thing as thermal equilibrium, and some circuits and/or parts simply take longer to achieve this than others. If you don't believe in burn-in or that I could hear a difference in wires in MY system, makes no difference to me...
Some stuff changes with time and temperature. Any well-engineered circuit will understand and allow for this - even compensate for it. Tube burn-in is a real thing, but no-where near as influential as the audiophile community would have us beleive - tube burn out has more impact. Electrolytic caps form, but over seconds, not hours. Almost every type of cap is formed out of the box.

Ears, most importantly, burn in. Our brain is designed to interpret "near enough" sounds as a facsimile of the real thing. That's why audio reproduction exists. A recording of a trumpet has a quite different frequency distribution to the real thing, but its close enough that we think "Aaaah - trumpet!". We train our brain to do this and to adapt and blind us to the reality of what our ears are receiving

This ability (along with our natural hubris and a strong expectation bias) to adapt is what makes our brain so easy to trick. And we are back at speaker cable's influence on reproduced sound and our natural response of hearing a "difference".

You sure did hear a difference and you most likely thought it was better. It had nothing to do with the wire, but really, that doesn't matter. You are enjoying an improved experience.

justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 16 Jun 2018 03:51

Oh, I know all this, and were it not for spending a sizable portion of my time on the 'net in a slightly inebriated state, and tending to oversimplify grossly at times, I'd likely respond a little more near the level of intelligence this subject deserves. It's just that I was skeptical that I would hear anything. What I noticed, or thought I noticed, seemed more, I don't know, NOTICEABLE, than I would have thought. And it's likely I was slightly off center when it happened, anyway. Still makes a decent story.

Be that as it may, I think the real problem dogging the whole psycho-acoustical phenomena thing is not being able to retrieve an ACCURATE quantification of the value placed on an thing/experience and how an individual perceives that thing. It's similar to how being two feet apart at a concert is a different show from a different angle, and therefore, not the same. And though they both heard/saw pretty much the same things, they paid different levels of attention to different things that were important to them as individuals. Consequently, their detail retrieval will be different, and impossible to quantify in a meaningful manner. Average responses, yes. Accurate response from any given individual, not so much.

justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 16 Jun 2018 04:01

Oh, and you should have heard what happened when I changed interconnects from a mass of whatever-was-available-when-I-needed-a-cable to all identical semi-custom interconnects! :wink:

aardvarkash10
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by aardvarkash10 » 16 Jun 2018 07:06

justjed0001 wrote:Oh, and you should have heard what happened when I changed interconnects from a mass of whatever-was-available-when-I-needed-a-cable to all identical semi-custom interconnects! :wink:
Let me guess - soundstage widened suddenly and a veil was lifted, inky darkness descended on the quiet sections and previously harsh and strident trebles softened and became more like sunlight settling gently on gilded lilies.

Your wife/gf/so entered the room and commented that the entire system sounded different, better and would you like pork chops and mash for dinner?

Am I close? :wink:

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by Spinner45 » 16 Jun 2018 08:25

aardvarkash10 wrote:
justjed0001 wrote:Oh, and you should have heard what happened when I changed interconnects from a mass of whatever-was-available-when-I-needed-a-cable to all identical semi-custom interconnects! :wink:
Let me guess - soundstage widened suddenly and a veil was lifted, inky darkness descended on the quiet sections and previously harsh and strident trebles softened and became more like sunlight settling gently on gilded lilies.

Your wife/gf/so entered the room and commented that the entire system sounded different, better and would you like pork chops and mash for dinner?

Am I close? :wink:
And a Bhaskara wheel silently spun on a nearby table... :shock:

justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 16 Jun 2018 15:04

Brother, you described it as if you were there when it happened! Brings tears to my eyes!! Of course, that could also be an allergic reaction to the onions in my fried ham and potatoes...

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 16 Jun 2018 18:31

cafe latte wrote:
LD100 wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: Maggies and Acoustats need 200WPC to sound right. For larger Maggies that 200WPC is IMO/E a minimum.
+1

I gave up trying to explain that electrostatic speakers appear to amplifiers as a capacitive load versus a resistive load from dynamic speakers. :oops:

My four stacked Crown Electrostatic ES212s are actively bi-amped by two 350 Watts/ channel McIntosh power amplifiers on the 2 Ohm output. I use around 25+ feet of 10 gauge plain copper wire as speaker wire. :D

Is this necessary for a nice hi-fi with a great pair of dynamic ATC speakers...no.

We (electrostatic and planar users) are just sharing our personal experience with our personal systems, not trying to tell you what you need with your systems.
If you ever decide to change to electrostatic speakers, you may find this experience and information helpful. =D>
I used to own electrostatic speaker so I am aware of the odd load they present that not all amps are happy with. My point is 200 watts is 200 watts no matter how you look at it.
Chris

Who said it wasn't? :roll:

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by cafe latte » 17 Jun 2018 01:25

Joe Umm you did..
You have been going on about how Maggies need a lot of power and you said those who did not own them would not understand. You also went on about voice coil thicknesses and this was all in the middle of a conversation about speaker wire gauge.
I said 200 watts is not a lot of power when you look at big picture. 200 watts sounds like a lot until you realise you electric kettle cord is coping with over 2Kw, 200 watts is nothing..
Chris

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