speaker wire ?

amplifiers, receivers and loudspeakers
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RobertinMn2
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by RobertinMn2 » 10 Jun 2018 16:49

Bobber05 wrote:Having posted a link to what I have long considered to be one of the most balanced and insightful articles regarding speaker wiring,I won't continue this debate. However, I will leave you with two great relevant Brit quotes to ponder:

The wider we open the window,the more the dust blows in.

Ignorance is bliss.
That article refers to what, I don't know. I was in college in the late 70's, early 80's. if you saw what most people used for speaker wire back then you would have a different view of the article. Most people "in the know" started using lamp cord in the early 70's and then switched to 12 gauge in the mid to late 70's. By the time that article was written, only "old farts" were still using the typical "speaker wire" you could get from radio shack or sears. I don't remember hi fi shops selling speaker wire in the 70's. I grew up near where Best Buy was born--as a very hi end audio shop. and I knew the family that owned a small chain of high end shops that they sold to Dayton-Hudson Corp.--now simply "Target".

JDJX
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by JDJX » 11 Jun 2018 01:15

The question is..... exactly why did people stop using "lanp cord" as long as it was the proper gauge for a given application.

If it it only few feet to your speakers lamp card is just fine. :)

The point is, statistics can often be misleading. :)

Spinner45
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Jun 2018 02:12

JDJX wrote:The question is..... exactly WHY did people stop using "lamp cord" as long as it was the proper gauge for a given application.

If it it only few feet to your speakers lamp card is just fine. :)

The point is, statistics can often be misleading. :)
Why?
Hype.
Marketing.
Brainwashing.
:shock:

RobertinMn2
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by RobertinMn2 » 11 Jun 2018 22:30

Spinner45 wrote:
JDJX wrote:The question is..... exactly WHY did people stop using "lamp cord" as long as it was the proper gauge for a given application.

If it it only few feet to your speakers lamp card is just fine. :)

The point is, statistics can often be misleading. :)
Why?
Hype.
Marketing.
Brainwashing.
:shock:
EXACTLY. That article linked to above is from 1980 or so. Like I said, by that time even teenagers were well aware that it was a better "speaker" cable and was cheap. My guess is, like everything else, it was much better made back then than today. Copper was quite cheap back then--a penny was actually worth a penny in copper. once the chinese entered the manufacturing picture, they drove the price of copper through the roof, at least for a time.

Truth is, is that a lot of advances in stereo gear came from baby boomers back then demanding better, more realistic and more powerful gear--"party on, dude". You really don't need 100 + (pure) watts/channel amps unless your trying to recreate a rock concert experience. Classical is sooo low in distortion it really doesn't push your system at all. But the built in distortion of Rock does--hard.

If you must have "speaker cable" then limit it to Axiom as I did. I had long runs (30') and i know lamp cord is not what used to be. I hate Monster cable. Mostly what I liked about the Axion was it's pliability--smooth and supple, easily pulled, shielded so in house wiring is not an issue. I do not "terminate" my cables, direct connections only. While rewiring speakers for bi and tri amping, Mogami wire that was 14 ga. I wanted to leave the passive Xover wiring alone.

katana1100
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by katana1100 » 12 Jun 2018 06:06

I saw a chart that showed that to maintain damping, gauge had to get thicker as impedendence dropped. Below 2 ohms, 12g was needed for 14’ .
Yes, I have acoustats that can drop below 2ohms so they benefit from 12g. Speakers that are 4-8 can easily maintain damping with 14g. Actually, it’s overkill.

JoeE SP9
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 13 Jun 2018 00:27

I have Acoustats and Magnepans both of which need at minimum 100WPC, 200WPC is even better. Some have only used their small limited selection of ported bookshelf speakers and obviously have no experience with speakers that need lots of power. Any Infinity with Watkins woofers is in the same category as Acoustats and Magnepans.

FWIW: I also use "boutique" speaker cables and IC's.

cafe latte
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jun 2018 00:57

JoeE SP9 wrote:I have Acoustats and Magnepans both of which need at minimum 100WPC, 200WPC is even better. Some have only used their small limited selection of ported bookshelf speakers and obviously have no experience with speakers that need lots of power. Any Infinity with Watkins woofers is in the same category as Acoustats and Magnepans.

FWIW: I also use "boutique" speaker cables and IC's.
How many amps do you think 200WPC draws? How thick do you think the wire is that is in a speaker voice coil?
Chris

jdjohn
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by jdjohn » 13 Jun 2018 01:23

Depends on the speakers and how many drivers are inside. Also depends on the size of the inductor coils, right? Wouldn't it be cumulative?

Maggie coils are about the diameter/gauge of a big paper clip, and there are LOTS of rows of them, several feet long. Seems prudent to have enough current in reserves to handle transients. Kind of like the fuel line in your car. For idling, the size of the fuel line is MORE than enough, but if you floor the accelerator, you'll need that fuel line to big enough to supply fuel to all the cylinders, and at the pressure that is needed.

cafe latte
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jun 2018 01:47

jdjohn wrote:Depends on the speakers and how many drivers are inside. Also depends on the size of the inductor coils, right? Wouldn't it be cumulative?

Maggie coils are about the diameter/gauge of a big paper clip, and there are LOTS of rows of them, several feet long. Seems prudent to have enough current in reserves to handle transients. Kind of like the fuel line in your car. For idling, the size of the fuel line is MORE than enough, but if you floor the accelerator, you'll need that fuel line to big enough to supply fuel to all the cylinders, and at the pressure that is needed.
I doubt they are that thick speaker voice coils at least. Just looked at some 300w ATC voice coils and they are nowhere near that thick. For a constant 200w you would need an amp giving 40 volts and 5 amps constantly which is nothing. 10 amp 240v cable can handle 2400 watts for example. If a cable is rated at 6 amps it is 6 amps constantly not peaks. Really the voltages and currents involved dont need anything like the wire people imagine we are only talking a couple of hundred watts not kilowatts.
Chris

JoeE SP9
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 13 Jun 2018 15:18

cafe latte wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote:I have Acoustats and Magnepans both of which need at minimum 100WPC, 200WPC is even better. Some have only used their small limited selection of ported bookshelf speakers and obviously have no experience with speakers that need lots of power. Any Infinity with Watkins woofers is in the same category as Acoustats and Magnepans.

FWIW: I also use "boutique" speaker cables and IC's.
How many amps do you think 200WPC draws? How thick do you think the wire is that is in a speaker voice coil?
Chris
You've obviously never had either Maggies or Acoustats and mores the point never tried driving either with a 100WPC amp. Please stick to things in which you have some knowledge.

Acoustats being electrostatics have no voice coil or magnets.

The flat voice coil on Maggies bears little resemblence to a traditional voice coil other than function. Yes, the wires on Maggie midrange and bass panels are the size of medium to large paperclip wires. The wires on the tweeters although Aluminum rather than Copper are the size of small paper clip wires.

Check any of the available Maggie rebuild stories widely available on the web and it's easy to see the size of the wires used on Maggies.

justjed0001
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by justjed0001 » 14 Jun 2018 02:44

I used to run bare copper 12ga wires, but decided to try something different. Went with Blue Jeans 10ga, with the ultrasonically welded connectors. There was an immediately noticeable improvement in sound quality! No, not because removing the old cables removed oxidation from the contacts. I regularly changed out speakers, and at least twice a year would cut an inch or so off either end and strip it back to fresh wire. It was simply better conductivity with the new cables. The cable runs are only 10 ft, so capacitance and/or inductance are non-issues. Works for me, your results may vary...

Bobber05
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by Bobber05 » 14 Jun 2018 04:02

Uh oh, strongly advise that you obtain mass quantities of Nair, being hairless makes it easier to remove the tar and feathers....

May we ask what amp and speakers got the BJ? And,how specifically was the SQ improved?

cafe latte
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by cafe latte » 14 Jun 2018 09:51

JoeE SP9 wrote:
cafe latte wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote:I have Acoustats and Magnepans both of which need at minimum 100WPC, 200WPC is even better. Some have only used their small limited selection of ported bookshelf speakers and obviously have no experience with speakers that need lots of power. Any Infinity with Watkins woofers is in the same category as Acoustats and Magnepans.

FWIW: I also use "boutique" speaker cables and IC's.
How many amps do you think 200WPC draws? How thick do you think the wire is that is in a speaker voice coil?
Chris
You've obviously never had either Maggies or Acoustats and mores the point never tried driving either with a 100WPC amp. Please stick to things in which you have some knowledge.

Acoustats being electrostatics have no voice coil or magnets.

The flat voice coil on Maggies bears little resemblence to a traditional voice coil other than function. Yes, the wires on Maggie midrange and bass panels are the size of medium to large paperclip wires. The wires on the tweeters although Aluminum rather than Copper are the size of small paper clip wires.

Check any of the available Maggie rebuild stories widely available on the web and it's easy to see the size of the wires used on Maggies.
I never said anything about driving them with a 100 watt amp what I said was 200 watts is very little current and does not need heavy speaker wire.
Chris

Pauw
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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by Pauw » 14 Jun 2018 09:56

I love these debates about the laws of Physics, of the Universe and of whether electrons have brains.....mmmm says the electron this is nice copper I can flow through this better and the sound will improve !

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Re: speaker wire ?

Post by aardvarkash10 » 14 Jun 2018 10:57

justjed0001 wrote:... It was simply better conductivity with the new cables.
You measured it?
justjed0001 wrote:The cable runs are only 10 ft, so capacitance and/or inductance are non-issues. Works for me, your results may vary...
So, capacitance and inductance are "non-issues" at 10 foot of cable, but resistance (and hence conductivity) is?

Do tell...

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