Bearing oil replacement

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hand of ike
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 18 Mar 2018 23:54

Just to report,

Oil changed and Marvin is sounding great, thanks to GyroSE I cancelled my OriginLive VTA adjuster and I ordered the Michell version and the finger nut... corrected the 1deg out VTA on my Grado Prestige 2 Green.... Nice!

It’s a new bearing so I’m expecting a minor improvement once it’s bedded in

I’ve gone through Let’s Get it On and now listening to What’s Going On, Marvin singing sweetly!

I’m looking forward to tweaking my GyroSE over the coming months with you all, next I’ll be checking on the azimuth but just going to kick back now and listen to some great grooves...

GyroSE
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 19 Mar 2018 08:05

hand of ike wrote:Just to report,

Oil changed and Marvin is sounding great, thanks to GyroSE I cancelled my OriginLive VTA adjuster and I ordered the Michell version and the finger nut... corrected the 1deg out VTA on my Grado Prestige 2 Green.... Nice!

It’s a new bearing so I’m expecting a minor improvement once it’s bedded in

I’ve gone through Let’s Get it On and now listening to What’s Going On, Marvin singing sweetly!

I’m looking forward to tweaking my GyroSE over the coming months with you all, next I’ll be checking on the azimuth but just going to kick back now and listen to some great grooves...
Sounds great that you're up and running. :D

Dr Pan K
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by Dr Pan K » 19 Mar 2018 08:55

I have a Michell bearing mounted on my DIY turntable and it is very well made (inverted, nice tolerances) but I would never put modern motor inside it. Over the past years I did a series of oil tests including various quality and viscosity ones, and modern motor oil will wreck havoc on bronze bushings and spindles.

It is not a matter of if it spins well, obviously any given oil will get you low friction. Th problems will arise later on and it will be too late to recover that bearing.

The magic word here is "modern" motor oils. Because there can be found motor oils without additives and soaps inside, made for historic engines mostly. I had a bottle made on my specs from a motor oil company but other additive free oils can be found with less fuss.

I somewhat doubt Michell is using plain, modern 0-40 and if they actually do that is a bit unprofessional in my eyes. What Chris said..

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 19 Mar 2018 09:12

Dr Pan K wrote:I have a Michell bearing mounted on my DIY turntable and it is very well made (inverted, nice tolerances) but I would never put modern motor inside it. Over the past years I did a series of oil tests including various quality and viscosity ones, and modern motor oil will wreck havoc on bronze bushings and spindles.

It is not a matter of if it spins well, obviously any given oil will get you low friction. Th problems will arise later on and it will be too late to recover that bearing.

The magic word here is "modern" motor oils. Because there can be found motor oils without additives and soaps inside, made for historic engines mostly. I had a bottle made on my specs from a motor oil company but other additive free oils can be found with less fuss.

I somewhat doubt Michell is using plain, modern 0-40 and if they actually do that is a bit unprofessional in my eyes. What Chris said..
+1, And I should have specified modern motor oils older engines for example did not have oil filters so crud settling out was preferable than in suspension causing wear, then there are the other additives and emulsifying agents that are not good at all in an open and bronze bearing. So basically in my opinion modern motor oils are a no no, machine oils and compressor oils (compressors tend to have bronze bits and no oil filter) are fine. I will post any reply from Mitchell, but regardless if they recommend modern car engine oil in an open bearing I strongly disagree.
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 19 Mar 2018 10:27

Dr Pan K wrote:I have a Michell bearing mounted on my DIY turntable and it is very well made (inverted, nice tolerances) but I would never put modern motor inside it. Over the past years I did a series of oil tests including various quality and viscosity ones, and modern motor oil will wreck havoc on bronze bushings and spindles.

It is not a matter of if it spins well, obviously any given oil will get you low friction. Th problems will arise later on and it will be too late to recover that bearing.

The magic word here is "modern" motor oils. Because there can be found motor oils without additives and soaps inside, made for historic engines mostly. I had a bottle made on my specs from a motor oil company but other additive free oils can be found with less fuss.

I somewhat doubt Michell is using plain, modern 0-40 and if they actually do that is a bit unprofessional in my eyes. What Chris said..
I then wonder why I've never seen any damage on and/or inside the bearing on my Gyro SE? I've had it for over 10 years, I always check both the bearing and the bearing ball up close with a magnifying glass and a loupe when I change oil- the bearing is over 10 years old and it's still in mint condition.

hand of ike
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 19 Mar 2018 10:37

Dr Pan K wrote:The magic word here is "modern" motor oils. Because there can be found motor oils without additives and soaps inside, made for historic engines mostly. I had a bottle made on my specs from a motor oil company but other additive free oils can be found with less fuss.
The magic word from Michell is ‘fully synthetic’ that’s what they told me to use
Dr Pan K wrote:I somewhat doubt Michell is using plain, modern 0-40 and if they actually do that is a bit unprofessional in my eyes. What Chris said..
Well they did for decades according to the email reply I got from them. And it seems that the oil they now brand as their own is 0-40...

My bearing is over 10 years old and clean as a whistle, as was the ball - I changed my ball as was doing a mini service....

Dr Pan K
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by Dr Pan K » 19 Mar 2018 11:30

Steel bearing balls are not as susceptible to corrosion as sintered bronze bushings but they do oxidize on contact with chem agents and air. Each part of your bearing will behave differently and it's any man's guess by how much rumble will rise.

100% synthetic motor oil makes minimum difference compared to non 100% as the temperatures and rotational speed are minimum. There is no wear to your oil.. of course if you can choose why not 100%?

That said, I honestly don't give a rat's @ss if you corrode your bearing. It's just that this is a forum and others come to read and learn, and what they are getting is misleading information. And the funny thing is that vintage, soap free, additive free motor oils can be easily found on eBay but you guys insist on using modern ones.

I'm off this thread, enjoy your tables gents

hand of ike
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 19 Mar 2018 12:10

Dr Pan K wrote:Steel bearing balls are not as susceptible to corrosion as sintered bronze bushings but they do oxidize on contact with chem agents and air. Each part of your bearing will behave differently and it's any man's guess by how much rumble will rise.

100% synthetic motor oil makes minimum difference compared to non 100% as the temperatures and rotational speed are minimum. There is no wear to your oil.. of course if you can choose why not 100%?

That said, I honestly don't give a rat's @ss if you corrode your bearing. It's just that this is a forum and others come to read and learn, and what they are getting is misleading information. And the funny thing is that vintage, soap free, additive free motor oils can be easily found on eBay but you guys insist on using modern ones.

I'm off this thread, enjoy your tables gents
Wow hostile much!

It was you that came here with any antagonism not the rest of us....

I didn’t say ‘fully synthetic’ as any statement other than this is what the engineer from Michell told me to use, was just putting the information here to aid the discussion - you threw your toys outta the pram here nobody else!

We are just reporting what the manufacture suggest to use and has used! How is that misleading? We aren’t suggesting some retro fit tweek, actually you are by saying use something else than the manufacturer suggests.

Non of us are saying ALL turntables just the turntable and oil suggested by the guys who make it.

I’d suggest someone who posts two slightly antogonising posts to a discussion then loses their sh*t adds nothing to a discussion and any ‘learning’...

Why not wait to see what Chris hears back from Michell before you drop mic?

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 19 Mar 2018 12:56

The Doc is a really really decent guy. He is a hifi reviewer and he knows his stuff big time. Probably he is having a bad day, but what he said is correct it makes no sense to use modern engine oil in an open bearing for so many reasons. Like I said I will post here Mitchell response, but to be honest if I owned one no way would I put engine oil in the bearing whatever they say. I here the calls of you guys, I have had my turntable for x number of years all good, but this does not mean you have not damaged the bearing or another oil would have resulted in less wear and long term less rumble.
The Doc I think is fed up of internet BS causing people to do the wrong thing and the oil debate is one rats nest, even companies selling the turntables get it wrong not understanding oil properties.
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by tketcham » 19 Mar 2018 13:22

I see a marketing opportunity for an enterprising oil product distributor. Hundreds of thousands of turntables using oil as a platter bearing lubricant and just as many owners needing a small bottle or packet of bearing oil. I bet the distributor could easily beat the exorbitant prices that many turntable manufacturers/distributors are getting for something similar.

Tom

hand of ike
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 19 Mar 2018 13:45

Bad day or not posting what the manufacturer and company that has done the R&D work says is not Internet BS.

I suggest it’s inapropriate to lose it with people about misinformation when it has him who was suggesting something different from the manufacturers recomendation even if the smallest outcome was that it could invalidate a warranty...

Anyway it’s hifi not international diplomacy, let’s chill it

GyroSE
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 19 Mar 2018 13:52

cafe latte wrote:The Doc is a really really decent guy. He is a hifi reviewer and he knows his stuff big time. Probably he is having a bad day, but what he said is correct it makes no sense to use modern engine oil in an open bearing for so many reasons. Like I said I will post here Mitchell response, but to be honest if I owned one no way would I put engine oil in the bearing whatever they say. I here the calls of you guys, I have had my turntable for x number of years all good, but this does not mean you have not damaged the bearing or another oil would have resulted in less wear and long term less rumble.
The Doc I think is fed up of internet BS causing people to do the wrong thing and the oil debate is one rats nest, even companies selling the turntables get it wrong not understanding oil properties.
Chris
As a hifi reviewer one should be much more pragmatical- just to throw in two answers and then exit a discussion abruptly and in a quite rude way isn't trustworthy IMHO.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by blakep » 19 Mar 2018 20:05

As I said in the other thread, I've run motor oil in both the original and inverted Michell bearings, as per Michell's instructions, for 35 years, 21 with the original bearing and the past twelve with the new inverted bearing.

No problems with either. Is my bearing damaged? If it is, I sure can't hear it. Sounds good enough to me.

But I'm supposed to listen to two guys (as opposed to the manufacturer), both of which seem to have no experience with my table, and whose advice is totally contradictory to the manufacturers' instructions as well as 35 years of positive experience from following those instructions.

OK. Seems very rational to me.

I also can't recall once in the the 20 years that I've been reading audio forums ever reading about anyone having to replace a Michell bearing.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 19 Mar 2018 22:29

I am waiting for the manufacture to get back to me, nothing yet though. I am sure Mitchell has done R and D, but quite frankly I find it hard to believe they are recommending engine oil. Guys do your own research on oils there are solid reasons this does not make sense. Engine oils contain additives what encourage water to absorb into the oil (not good), other additives that prevent solids from settling out (not good in a bearing as increases wear) and other anti wear additives that can attack bronze (REALLY NOT GOOD!!). The only thing that is fortunate is turntable bearings dont get hot so the latter issue is quite slow.
If Mitchell really do recommend an engine oil my guess is it is a misunderstanding of oils on their part. They are a small family business and nobody is probably an expert in oil and they are making IMO an honest mistake. Mobile one may well work but it is far from ideal. Poring mobile onto a lathe bed might "work" too but every machine shop will be using the correct machine oil.
What I cant understand is why they would recommend a synthetic car engine oil for use in a bronze open bearing when you can get synthetic machine oil of similar weights and with only additives that are good for the application, it makes no sense at all..
Like I said guys do a bit of oil research yourselves, I spent weeks researching and finding out alternatives for my turntables, but the basics are not hard to find online.
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 19 Mar 2018 22:33

hand of ike wrote:Bad day or not posting what the manufacturer and company that has done the R&D work says is not Internet BS.

I suggest it’s inapropriate to lose it with people about misinformation when it has him who was suggesting something different from the manufacturers recomendation even if the smallest outcome was that it could invalidate a warranty...

Anyway it’s hifi not international diplomacy, let’s chill it
Not sure why the Doc got annoyed, pity as it seems he has done some tests of his own and I was curious what he had to say..
Chris

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