Pioneer PLX-1000

the final frontier
jon96789
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by jon96789 » 14 Apr 2019 03:38

I have already downloaded and used RPM Pro for the iPhone... The speed is 33.41 rpm and the wow and flutter was 0.25%... My Sony 1980 PS-X7 had a speed of 33.39 rpm and wow and flutter of 0.12%... Note that the wow and flutter on the RPM Pro app is peak w&f, not weighted so the higher number is expected over the weighted w&f from the specs.

I would have liked to keep the Sony but there are some internal issues with some broken parts which are no longer available.

Luicas
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by Luicas » 14 Apr 2019 03:59

jon96789 wrote:
14 Apr 2019 03:38
I have already downloaded and used RPM Pro for the iPhone... The speed is 33.41 rpm and the wow and flutter was 0.25%... My Sony 1980 PS-X7 had a speed of 33.39 rpm and wow and flutter of 0.12%... Note that the wow and flutter on the RPM Pro app is peak w&f, not weighted so the higher number is expected over the weighted w&f from the specs.

I would have liked to keep the Sony but there are some internal issues with some broken parts which are no longer available.

Well, I'd definitely escalate this issue with Pioneer, they should do something about it. It's not normal.

Using the regular RPM app (not the Pro), my worst reading is "-0.0%". only for a second or so, and then back to "0.0%".

Cheers,
Luis

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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 05:16

Luicas wrote:
14 Apr 2019 03:26
Jon: You can also download one of those speed stability apps for iPhone/android. There are a couple of them, such as "RPM Turntable Speed Accuracy". Just place a bowl, upside down, centered on your platter. Place the phone dead centered on top of the bowl. Start your TT and measure your speed deviation. Mine is always 0%. I'm aware it's not NASA's super precision, but should give you a ballpark figure if your TT is faulty.

Luis
According to his Amazon review he’s already done that.

I used the iPhone app RPM Pro to test the W&F specs and it shows that the speed is inconsistent, at 0.25% (the app measures peak W&F, not a weighted figure that mfrs use which would be a lot lower). My old Sony has a W&F score of 0.13%, nearly half of the Pioneer. The app has a database of other tested players and it shows that all the Hanpin-made players have the same or worse scores.

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 05:22

jon96789 wrote:
14 Apr 2019 03:38
I have already downloaded and used RPM Pro for the iPhone... The speed is 33.41 rpm and the wow and flutter was 0.25%... My Sony 1980 PS-X7 had a speed of 33.39 rpm and wow and flutter of 0.12%... Note that the wow and flutter on the RPM Pro app is peak w&f, not weighted so the higher number is expected over the weighted w&f from the specs.

I would have liked to keep the Sony but there are some internal issues with some broken parts which are no longer available.
But the Pioneer published spec doesn’t use the term “weighted”, or any other normal industry jargon for measuring wow and flutter. Pioneer is using a bogus made up spec that’s useless for comparing against other turntables that do use valid accepted test methodology.

”<0.01% (Measured by obtaining signal from built-in frequency generator of motor assembly.)”

Meaningless.

Luicas
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by Luicas » 14 Apr 2019 05:45

That’s the same type of spec used by Technics for its turntables.

SL1200 mk2 specs as per its user manual:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 038/source



PLX1000 specs as per its user manual:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 039/source

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 05:58

Luicas wrote:
14 Apr 2019 05:45
That’s the same type of spec used by Technics for its turntables.

SL1200 mk2 specs as per its user manual:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 038/source



PLX1000 specs as per its user manual:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 039/source
That’s one of three specs Technics published along with two other industry-standard test measurements that Pioneer did not publish.

All I’m saying is Pioneer’s single spec is by itself not useful or indicative of the table’s real-world performance. It’s useless for comparison to its peers who do publish that data.

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 15:36

I bought the $9.99 RPM Pro app for iPhone. With the phone sitting on top of an inverted bowl centered on the platter as well as possible, after calibration of the app, the app says the Pioneer's speed is 33.45 RPM. The wow/flutter measures about 0.16%. But the TT's blue strobe says the speed is dead-on.

If I use the TT's pitch adjustment to set the speed to exactly 33.33 RPM as displayed by the app, the TT's blue strobe says the platter speed is too slow. If I use any of the strobe discs available on VE, they also clearly show the speed is too slow.

Conclusion: The RPM Pro app definitely can't measure the speed accurately or correctly. Therefore its measurement of wow and flutter is highly suspect.

jon96789
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by jon96789 » 14 Apr 2019 17:34

You cannot measure wow and flutter on a strobe. A strobe measures rpm speed only, and at a 60Hz cycle from the AC power line. Wow and flutter measurements are in hundredths of a per cent. You wouldn't even see a variation on the strobe if wow and flutter was off by full percentage points. There is no way to see that on a strobe. You really need a test record and a wow and flutter meter to get a realistic measurement.

A speed of 33.45 rpm vs 33.33 rpm is miniscule... That means after one minute of spinning, the record will only be off by only 0.10 of a revolution or off by 0.003 revolutions per rpm (that's only one degree per rpm). Very few turntables can even achieve that accuracy and only direct drive can maintain that speed constantly, as belts and idler wheels will degrade as it is used.

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 17:53

jon96789 wrote:
14 Apr 2019 17:34
You cannot measure wow and flutter on a strobe. A strobe measures rpm speed only, and at a 60Hz cycle from the AC power line. Wow and flutter measurements are in hundredths of a per cent. You wouldn't even see a variation on the strobe if wow and flutter was off by full percentage points. There is no way to see that on a strobe. You really need a test record and a wow and flutter meter to get a realistic measurement.

A speed of 33.45 rpm vs 33.33 rpm is miniscule... That means after one minute of spinning, the record will only be off by only 0.10 of a revolution or off by 0.003 revolutions per rpm (that's only one degree per rpm). Very few turntables can even achieve that accuracy and only direct drive can maintain that speed constantly, as belts and idler wheels will degrade as it is used.
I didn’t say anything about the strobes being a measure of wow & flutter. They’re only a measure of speed. (Severe cogging can be visible via strobe, but I don’t see any visible evidence of cogging on the Pioneer.)

As an indicator of platter speed, the TT’s blue strobe agrees with 3 different strobe discs. But none of those agree with RPM Pro. At that task, RPM Pro seems to fail. So I have no reason to believe its measurement of wow & flutter is reliable.

The percentage that the app is off on speed measurement is irrelevant to me because it’s visibly substantially wrong according to 4 different strobes. When the app says 33.33, all the strobes march counterclockwise at a pretty good rate.

I’ll go with the strobes.

If you place your phone at some random location on the platter that’s not centered over the spindle, the platter is now seriously unbalanced. And even if you use an inverted bowl centered on the platter as the platform for the phone, the phone is still introducing relatively high imbalance.

The app is fun for a few minutes but its readings are suspect. Using it as “proof” of an inherent wow & flutter problem seems highly dubious. As far as the database of readings contributed by other RPM Pro users, we don’t know anything about their test methodology. For example, where did they place the phone on the platter?

That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. :)

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 14 Apr 2019 21:47

Forgot to mention: It would be awesome if a $10 app had the precision required for this task. :)

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 17 Apr 2019 00:26

Amazon currently has the PLX-1000 for $649 with free Prime shipping. That’s the first time I’ve seen a new one anywhere for less than $699.

jon96789
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by jon96789 » 18 Apr 2019 21:27

I wonder if Pioneer is coming out with a new model to replace the PLX-500/1000. Audio-Technica is coming out with new models (AT140 and AT1240XUSB) this year. Maybe that's why the price dropped?

cafe latte
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by cafe latte » 18 Apr 2019 23:52

For what it is worth, the Technics wow and flutter is less than 0.025%, and the Pioneer was originally publishing 0.1% which is many times higher, but then they decided to only publish frequency generator specs which are basically meaningless.
Chris

NewOldVinyl
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by NewOldVinyl » 19 Apr 2019 03:07

jon96789 wrote:
18 Apr 2019 21:27
I wonder if Pioneer is coming out with a new model to replace the PLX-500/1000. Audio-Technica is coming out with new models (AT140 and AT1240XUSB) this year. Maybe that's why the price dropped?
A day later the price was back to $699. I dunno.

Luicas
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Re: Pioneer PLX-1000

Post by Luicas » 19 Apr 2019 04:08

You guys might want to try an app called Turntabulator. It does give the correct baseline speed of 33.33%. And has a 0.1% resolution for wow n flutter.

Both my TT’s come out as 33.33% exact. (Within the 0.1% resolution).

Use the “exact” mode on the settings menu.

I would worry if a TT does show a variation of 0.1% or more. In my case it shows 0.0% slow or “exact”.

Cheers

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