Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

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pinenut
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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by pinenut » 08 Dec 2017 20:34

Allsop wrote:I am trying to follow this thread with two issues:

1. In the UK we have limited access to this stuff (for example I cannot import tergikleen as it is flammable)

2. Is there a 'final' recipe or an idiots guide to how to make this? I would love to see it laid out as I just bought an ultrasonic cleaner myself and my first thought now is how I am going to fill this thing everytime.

Thanks and keep up the good work
I don’t know about any “final” recipe, as everyone likes to try something different. I guess it would also depend on whether you’re using a record vacuum, or hand washing. For use with my Nitty Gritty vacuum, I like:

From 1 gallon distilled water, I pour off 2 cups, then replace that amount with 91% isopropyl alcohol.
I then add 4 drops Triton X-100, then 2 drops Dawn brand “ultra free & gentle” (clear/no dyes) dish washing liquid. Shake well & serve. Works for me, but I may try more alcohol (3 cups per gallon, or about a 15% solution) on my next batch. I think if you ask 10 people, you’ll probably get at least 5 recipes..

If you’re hand washing, you can probably use more Triton X-100, then a distilled rinse.

I’m not doing any rinse with the Nitty Gritty. Records are coming out nice, no noticeable residue. On the stubborn old fingerprints or places where a plastic inner sleeve has left garbage on the vinyl, I first wipe those areas off by hand, using a microfiber cloth and straight 91% isopropyl, before cleaning on the NG record vac.

Anyway, I’d recommend starting with only a little detergent/surficant, then add a tiny bit more, until you acheive the desired results. Less is better, when it comes to the surficant. You want the water to -just- start flowing into the grooves, and not bead up on the surface. ^_^

Allsop
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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by Allsop » 09 Dec 2017 19:51

Thanks

I have an ultrasonic tank so I was going to just buy Tergikleen and triple distilled water and fill the tank with that.

I am probably paying over the odds doing it that way but I haven't a clue where to begin.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by htk99 » 19 Dec 2017 12:34

Hi,

is anyone familiar with suitable nonionic detergents that would be readily available in EU for a private person? The usual suspects Triton and Tergitols seem impossible to find. People making homemade toiletries use surfactants called Tween/Polysorbate and they are readily and cheaply available. Would this work?

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/443315

htk99
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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by htk99 » 19 Dec 2017 12:40

WireNut wrote:Dr Vince,

A friend suggested that I was not getting all of the surfactant removed so I washed Styx Grand Illusion again in fast running tap water, sprayed it with distilled H20-and 5% IPA/99% for at least 5 minutes while using a paint pad and also this time a micro fiber cloth.

I put the first side of Styx (already played once) back on the table and distortion set in again on the first track. I lifted the stylus and snapped the photos attached.

The paint pad i'm using is the same one recommended and I've only used it on 6 LP's.
I thought maybe it was shredding but that's not the case.

Steve.
I think most likely this is the microfiber cloth shedding. Some of them seem to shed a lot of fibers even if they are of the more tightly wound "window cleaning" type.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by vince1 » 19 Dec 2017 22:24

htk99 wrote:Hi,

is anyone familiar with suitable nonionic detergents that would be readily available in EU for a private person? The usual suspects Triton and Tergitols seem impossible to find. People making homemade toiletries use surfactants called Tween/Polysorbate and they are readily and cheaply available. Would this work?

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/443315
We use Polysorbates a lot in the laboratory, for isolating proteins and other applications. They will work, but I would use Tween 20 rather than Tween 80 as the latter is less miscible and tends to haze up in solution. Either way, they need to be kept in the fridge as they are fairly good carbon sources for microbial growth. If you want to keep it easy, pick up some Ilfotol at your local photographic supply shop....it will be very similar, and has a preservative (Methylisothiazolinone) that will allow for long term, room temperature storage.

I'm not sure why they are classifying Tergikleen as flammable...it is just Tergitol 15-S-9 and 15-S-3 mixed with preservative. No matter, user Spikey was able to get Octoxinol 9 in the UK (see his post on first page of this thread). This is another name for Triton so try searching for that term in your area. Another to look for is NP-40, which is a type of Tergitol.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by htk99 » 20 Dec 2017 10:28

Hi vince1,

thank you for the suggestions and storage information! The polysorbates are very attractive choice to me as they are locally available and very cheap, something like 5€ for 200 ml or 10€ for a litre. I'm pretty helpless with chemistry, but would like to understand what makes for a good cleaner for our purposes, ie. the differences of the mentioned polysorbates and Triton X-100. The cleaning solution will be used for an ultrasonic bath.

I collected some properties of the Polysorbates and Triton below in a table (from https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/da ... ochure.pdf).
Can these be used to deduce the suitability of the surfactant for cleaning dirt in records, or is it too simplified?

Code: Select all

Name            MW (g/mol)      CMC (mM)    Aggregation number  HLB     Cloud point Avg micellar weight
Polysorbate 20  1228 (avg.)     0,059                           16,7    76  
Polysorbate 80  1310 (avg.)     0,012       58                  15      65          79 000
TRITON™ X-100   647,0 (avg.)    0,23        75-165              13,5    66          80 000
For example, if I understood correctly the critical micelle concentrations of the polysorbates is a lot smaller (especially Polysorbate 20), so micelles will start to form with less of them in the solution than with Triton X-100.

At least Polysorbate 80 and Triton micelles (Polysorbate 20 information was not available) seem to have same average weight, but Triton has larger amount and more variance in the number of (smaller) monomers in the micelles.

The polysorbates are also more hydrophilic than Triton, but I don't understand the consequences, eg. how it effects for example their ability to "capture" everyday dirt and perhaps rinseability?

Would be great if you can shed a light on any of this, for example can the recommendation of Polysorbate 20 over 80 be inferred from these numbers?

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by vince1 » 20 Dec 2017 15:23

The main reason so many detergents are available is that they are used to selectively solubilize specific components (in industrial or scientific applications). A common application might be to separate a protein from a cell membrane without denaturing the protein so that it can be studied in isolation. This is where specific properties (like those on your table above) allow for selecting the right surfactant for the job. On records, we want all contaminants gone so this is not as critical. When selecting detergents for record cleaning, I like to simplify the problem to using something that is soluble in water so that everything rinses away cleanly, leaving no visible (or audible) film behind. However, it is a balance as the less water soluble surfactants can be better at solubilizing certain fats (like those found in fingerprint, for example). This is why mixes of Tergitol 15-S-9 (soluble) and Tergitol 15-S-3 (insoluble) are commonly used.
The difference between Tween 20 and 80 is in the hydrophobic tail portion of the surfactant. Tween 20 has a lauric acid tail (a saturated fatty acid) while Tween 80 is oleic acid (a monounsaturated omega-9 fatty acid). Hence, comparing Tween 20 to 80 properties is similar to comparing Coconut/Palm oils to Olive/Canola oils. Lauric acid is soluble in water, Oleic acid is insoluble which is why the Tween 80 can be a little more difficult to work with. They both have commonly been used as surfactants and should work in your ultrasonic tank. A combination of the two might be synergistic (I have never tested this). Triton X-100 is again, quite different from these, in that the hydrophobic tail is an aromatic hydrocarbon. The related Triton X-114 is more soluble in water, but more difficult for the average user to find.
All of these non-ionic detergents are rather gentle compared to the common anionic detergents used in dish/laundry soaps and shampoos which are measurably better at solubilizing all forms of contaminants. Hence, it makes little sense to mix these non-ionics with dish soap. The non-ionics are only useful as a substitute, if you buy into the premise (as most preservationists do) that anionic detergents promote issues with static charges and should be avoided.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by WireNut » 20 Dec 2017 21:44

I mixed virex-256 to strong and used it on 1 LP. Can it be removed by using IPA and distilled H20 and a couple rinse's. Thanks.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by vince1 » 21 Dec 2017 00:35

You don't need IPA, just wash with detergent and it will be removed.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by WireNut » 21 Dec 2017 02:15

Thanks.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by htk99 » 21 Dec 2017 18:18

vince1 wrote:The main reason so many detergents are available is that they are used to selectively solubilize specific compon ...
Thank you again vince, most helpful!

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by WireNut » 11 Jan 2018 18:47

I manually clean and have better luck with Tergitol 15-S-9 then Triton X-100. Triton X-100 even at 0.1% is difficult for me to remove even with 5% IPA. I have learned that "Less" is definitely better. I've figured out that when I spread it on an album (15-S-9) I want it to be runny. That way it's easy to remove.

Anyway, that's not why I'm posting. I'm looking for a small amount of Tergitol 15-S-7.
I don't know why it's so hard to get, and most sellers require you to fill out forms and then they approve or disapprove you :-| .

Where can I get a small amount (100ml) of Tergitol 15-S-7?

Thanks

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by Allsop » 29 Jan 2018 12:09

pinenut wrote:
Allsop wrote:I am trying to follow this thread with two issues:

1. In the UK we have limited access to this stuff (for example I cannot import tergikleen as it is flammable)

2. Is there a 'final' recipe or an idiots guide to how to make this? I would love to see it laid out as I just bought an ultrasonic cleaner myself and my first thought now is how I am going to fill this thing everytime.

Thanks and keep up the good work
I don’t know about any “final” recipe, as everyone likes to try something different. I guess it would also depend on whether you’re using a record vacuum, or hand washing. For use with my Nitty Gritty vacuum, I like:

From 1 gallon distilled water, I pour off 2 cups, then replace that amount with 91% isopropyl alcohol.
I then add 4 drops Triton X-100, then 2 drops Dawn brand “ultra free & gentle” (clear/no dyes) dish washing liquid. Shake well & serve. Works for me, but I may try more alcohol (3 cups per gallon, or about a 15% solution) on my next batch. I think if you ask 10 people, you’ll probably get at least 5 recipes..

If you’re hand washing, you can probably use more Triton X-100, then a distilled rinse.

I’m not doing any rinse with the Nitty Gritty. Records are coming out nice, no noticeable residue. On the stubborn old fingerprints or places where a plastic inner sleeve has left garbage on the vinyl, I first wipe those areas off by hand, using a microfiber cloth and straight 91% isopropyl, before cleaning on the NG record vac.

Anyway, I’d recommend starting with only a little detergent/surficant, then add a tiny bit more, until you acheive the desired results. Less is better, when it comes to the surficant. You want the water to -just- start flowing into the grooves, and not bead up on the surface. ^_^
Would L'Art Du Son and some Type 1 Reagent Grade water be ok for an ultrasonic tank?

Im really struggling in the UK to find anything mentioned in this thread and anyone I ask about shipping from US wont do it as they claim it is flammable.

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by Allsop » 29 Jan 2018 12:31

I do have a bottle of KEITH MONKS discOvery33/45 which im tempted to just tip into the ultrasonic machine. It has not been used yet this machine and I am keen to see the results with it as I paid a lot to import it from the USA

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Re: Record Cleaning Solution Using Triton X-100

Post by jim69bird » 08 Feb 2018 05:44

If I can post a couple of comments.

I will say that as a chemical engineer who has run a lab I think you are on solid ground with the non ionic surfactant ipa and distilled water recommendation.

It’s been a few years but triton x100 is a go to cleaner.

These days I also work with cleaning of plastic membranes so I have a bit of a background in the subject.

I just got my spin clean for Christmas. The high purity water is a must, but you have to lower the surface tension to get the water into the groove. Vinyl is hydrophobic and beads are bad for cleaning. Alcohol lowers the surface tension.