Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

how clean is your house
Willem1671
senior member
senior member
Posts: 341
Joined: 23 Nov 2008 19:34
Location: Hekelingen, The Netherlands

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thr

Post by Willem1671 » 15 Apr 2017 10:05

I have many records that were in the PVC outer sleeves that are totally unplayable due to the escaping weakeners in the PVC that settles down on PVC-based records. I have dozens of American styrene 45's that are in he same PVC sleeves that are not harmed in any way, so styrene is immune for the escaping weakeners. Also, records in lined inner sleeves are not damaged, no matter what material was used for those lined sleeves. Yes, some had the "sticky to the feel" inners and some left some rings on the record but these rings were not audible at all. A PVC outer sleeve will become brittle and will have sharp edges that can cut right through your skin.These sleeves have lost their weakeners and during their escape, a process that might takes decades but also much less than that, will migrate on to the record surface, leaving a dull surface. Escaping weakeners, a phenomenon that is also know under another name: free radicals. Nasty fumes that came from pressed particle board was another. It had no smell but could make a house totally unsuitable to live in. So free radicals come in quite a number of disguises.
Weakeners by the way seem to be notorious for strange diseases. But this is way out of scope and certainly not something I'm specialised in. Anyway, now I store my records in PE-based outer sleeves. They are not as clear as PVC is but at least my records are safe now. I'm quite reluctant though for using the thin so called Blake sleeves. They are not long enough on the market to find out what their behaviour would be in the long run.

redcrop
Posts: 1
Joined: 12 Jun 2017 08:48

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by redcrop » 12 Jun 2017 09:31

I can confirm that Plastic record sleeves DEF DO destroy vinyl....I recently retrieved my 7 inch collection of 1500 singles from storage and over 300 of them have perished in exactly the way described. I also know someone else who lost her entire collection of over 2000 records in the same way. I can't confirm how short term use of these sleeves affect the vinyl but mine have all been housed in plastic sleeve for over 30 years and long term THEY DEFINATELY PERISH...I consider myself lucky to have discovered the problem now because I have no doubt that had I waited a few months longer my entire collection would be destroyed.

cmarti
member
member
Posts: 125
Joined: 18 Apr 2015 23:09

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by cmarti » 12 Jun 2017 17:12

redcrop wrote:I can confirm that Plastic record sleeves DEF DO destroy vinyl....I recently retrieved my 7 inch collection of 1500 singles from storage and over 300 of them have perished in exactly the way described. I also know someone else who lost her entire collection of over 2000 records in the same way. I can't confirm how short term use of these sleeves affect the vinyl but mine have all been housed in plastic sleeve for over 30 years and long term THEY DEFINITELY PERISH...I consider myself lucky to have discovered the problem now because I have no doubt that had I waited a few months longer my entire collection would be destroyed.
DO you mean plastic of PVC based?

Gelid
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 397
Joined: 07 Dec 2014 06:56

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Gelid » 31 Oct 2017 04:36

This is absolutely the scariest thing I have ever read about vinyl record collecting. How can such a thing happen and I not have heard of it... anywhere... except here?

I know it's true, and though I only have (had!) one PVC outer sleeve in my 400+ album collection, this thread still made me worry.

I put a lot of time and money into preserving my growing collection for the long-term, while still keeping it accessable. I'd hate the thought of my old records being better off in the same basement I rescued them from.

Thankfully, the inner and outer sleeves I use on everything, new or old, are polyethylene:

1) high-density polyethylene (MoFi Original Master Sleeves or Diskeeper sleeves)
2) "high clarity" polyethylene 3.0 mil thick for the outer sleeves.

I like those cheap outers because they don't seal closed. So humidity can escape from it's contents, I orientate the opening of the outer at the top. I can accept the little bit of dust that will make it's way in... better than sealing moisture in with the record.

muninman
junior member
junior member
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Aug 2011 15:41
Location: Oxford

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by muninman » 14 Jan 2018 22:23

Just to add a bit more complexity to the mix. One of the earliest records I bought was the double Beatles Rock n Roll album in 1979. Like most of my first records, I didn't treat it all that well. In 1986 I hired the Keith Monks RCM and used it on this record. A few years ago, can't be precise, I checked it and found a strange rippled pattern. I can only describe it as a very clear rectangle shape on one side, and a less defined shape of the reverse. It only affected one record out of the 2. I think I put it down to some kind of pressing fault, but intrigued I carried out an internet search and found very similar examples on this thread. I also tested it by playing and it causes the characteristic 'whooshing' sound.

Now the complexity:
- I own 1200 vinyl lps and this is the only one I have ever found thus affected;
- I have NEVER used PVC based record covers;
- Although this record is now in a polythene lined inner sleeve, for the first 12 years of its existence it was in the original paper sleeves (I tend to date when I swop to poly-lined inner sleeves);
- How can I account for the shape of the fogging which looks like some kind of direct contact (but on both sides?)

It puzzles the hell out of me, but I do wonder if a lot of this fogging damage might have been some kind of original pressing fault which original went unnoticed. I certainly did not scrutinize my early vinyl albums. Perhaps there is a bit more to this than just the PVC account.
I will post this account first because I haven't been on the forum for years, and then I will try to add the photos I have just taken.
Last edited by muninman on 14 Jan 2018 22:44, edited 4 times in total.

muninman
junior member
junior member
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Aug 2011 15:41
Location: Oxford

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by muninman » 14 Jan 2018 22:35

20180114_204126 - Copy.jpg
Here is the best photo, which doesn't show the full rectangular nature of this fogging, but it does indicate the two straight edges:

KentT
long player
long player
Posts: 3810
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 20:44
Location: Athens, TN

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Post by KentT » 14 Jan 2018 23:08

kelvinMunson wrote:Paper inners are not a great idea, as they will always leave material on the vinyl. I have been using polythene inners since 1969 and have had no issues.
I've never had a record affected by paper sleeves. Some of the plastic lined inner sleeves do react with vinyl, especially in hot or moist climates. UK Decca/London being a known offender (up to 1975, they changed the inner lining to rice paper, those are fine). RCA Red Seal and Angel also had issues with this same problem.

muninman
junior member
junior member
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Aug 2011 15:41
Location: Oxford

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by muninman » 15 Jan 2018 00:47

EtchWear wrote:
IMG_20160501_010658smaller.jpg
New here, very interesting thread

I happen to have two copies of Nine Inch Nails 10" pressed in UK.
One stored in the original plastic sleeve that came with this postersleeve release ... the other copy i have just kept in the poster sleeve

Opening these two was a schock, check the picture, the record kept in the original plastic is almost turning grey compared to my other copy ... then i checked my other records and it seems this vinyl fogging has gotten a strong grip on my collection, especially my UK Duran Duran pressings ... hardest damage on the 7"s and 12" all stored in plastic sleeves. For the 12"s i bought protective inner sleeves as UK 12"s often came in puny sleeves, these are all fogged ... all of them. And then i checked it has also happend to later additions to my collection, like the 2013 record store day 10" with Røyksopp covering Depeche Mode on red vinyl, it has a grey tigerish pathern attacking the surface of the vinyl.

Also a large portion of my french, spanish, holland and australian pressings of Duran Duran 7"s share the same fogging problem.
IMG_20160501_011749.jpg
So now i have a tall pile of plastic on my floor never to embrace my vinyls ever ever again ... fanzy glossy plastic sleeves ? don`t do it !
IMG_20160501_023139.jpg

The Bowie LP is the closest example to the situation I have reported. The wave pattern is almost identical to the one I have posted. Now - are you absolutely sure this is due to PVC? I ask this because in my case the record was not placed in a PVC cover, and only one album in a double has been affected (and in a very distinct rectangle shape).

muninman
junior member
junior member
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Aug 2011 15:41
Location: Oxford

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by muninman » 17 Jan 2018 18:46

Apologies - my case IS a form of chemical transference from plastics.
I was determined to crack this case, and from the recesses of my memory I remembered that I found on old (early 80s) CBS 'I heart/love Jazz' car sticker stored in this LP. How or why I placed it there I don't know, but once I remembered this fact, I hunted it down and found it matched the misting shape exactly.
Why I put it in this album, how long ago, and whether it predated polythene inner sleeves, I don't know; nor do I know what type of plastic the sticker is made from. But this caused the damage and so it supports the general claims made in this thread.

Knieriem
member
member
Posts: 34
Joined: 20 Jan 2018 20:05

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Knieriem » 23 Feb 2018 09:38

The worries never end with this format do they?

I have polyethylene sleeves, are these safe?

Gelid
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 397
Joined: 07 Dec 2014 06:56

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Gelid » 24 Feb 2018 23:20

Knieriem wrote:The worries never end with this format do they?

I have polyethylene sleeves, are these safe?
SergioRZ wrote:...Polyethylene is completely safe. :)
It has been determined that polyethylene is indeed safe to store your vinyl records in.

ripblade
long player
long player
Canada
Posts: 1011
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 19:51
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Post by ripblade » 25 Feb 2018 00:09

KentT wrote:
kelvinMunson wrote:Paper inners are not a great idea, as they will always leave material on the vinyl. I have been using polythene inners since 1969 and have had no issues.
I've never had a record affected by paper sleeves. Some of the plastic lined inner sleeves do react with vinyl, especially in hot or moist climates. UK Decca/London being a known offender (up to 1975, they changed the inner lining to rice paper, those are fine). RCA Red Seal and Angel also had issues with this same problem.
Have you tried washing them in plenty of soap and water? I noticed this same issue, but unlike the PVC related fogging, this one related to the poly liners doesn't seem to be permanent.

Willem1671
senior member
senior member
Posts: 341
Joined: 23 Nov 2008 19:34
Location: Hekelingen, The Netherlands

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Willem1671 » 12 Mar 2018 22:25

It seems not only the escaping weakeners from PVC outer sleeves can (will rather) cause damage. It might also be so that the ingredients in (some kinds of) PVC used for records can cause damage. PVC is a complicated product. Its features depend on many unknown factors and storage, temperature, humidity levels and exposure to fluorescent light can all have their effects. Paper inner sleeves and cardboard outer sleeves offer no protection against escaping plasticisers at all. If records are stored in poly lined inner sleeves or the like they will be reasonably safe but I would take no risks and get rid of all PVC outer sleeves.

Willem1671
senior member
senior member
Posts: 341
Joined: 23 Nov 2008 19:34
Location: Hekelingen, The Netherlands

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Willem1671 » 10 Apr 2018 21:40

New information on pvc.

I have ordered some new pvc sleeves from Walvis plastics over here in Holland. And I also ordered some from another source. Guess what! They are both marketed to be made of pvc but to the feel they are different and they also have a different smell AND shade. One product has this blueish colour and the other product is completely colourless. Both products smell like pvc (that distinctive plastic odeur) but there is a difference. So my guess would be the pvc formulas for these two products are different. Maybe one of the products doesn’t harm our records at all and maybe the other will. Not instantly but in the long run. In Europe pvc compounds are all subject to strickt manufacturing rules. Some softeners and other additives in the previous compound(s) are no longer allowed in new formulas. So it can very well be that the new product does not harm our records. Or another nasty side effect might appear in the long run, who knows? So, just to stay on the safe side, avoid pvc, it is that simple. There are enough alternative products on the market today that won’t do any harm to our vinyl. Same goes for the new pvc compound(s) for the record pvc itself. In the EU, the use of toluene and lead is no longer permitted. Maybe additives in the earlier compound(s) are responsible for the deterioation of some records. Leeching pvc outer sleeves is one problem, the compound(s) of pvc for records may be another. Another interesting fact is that my very thin and flexible US RCA pressings on so called Dynaflex are all in very good shape. Also those that were stored for decades in paper inner sleeves and pvc outer sleeves. So that compound is different, no doubt about it. Specially composed for those thin and flexible RCA pressings. Same goes for some very old lp records from the 50’s. Many of those are not flexible at all, a bit like our present 180 grams pvc.

I personally do not think we are able to get all the answers. Plastics, and pvc in particular, are complex products that are tailored for the specific products, ranging from car parts to records and anything in between. Add to that that the manufaturers of the pvc pellets are all reluctant to reveal the formulas. Resulting in endless discussions and speculations. In short, avoid pvc outer sleeves to come near to our beloved vinyl!

ZXR400
Posts: 1
Joined: 05 May 2018 15:48

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by ZXR400 » 05 May 2018 16:47

Stopped using PVC many years ago now use Polypropylene or Mylar both are PAT tested & suitable for long term archival storage & crystal clear to view spines & artwork

Post Reply