Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

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JDJX
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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by JDJX » 02 May 2016 04:37

Let's not confuse "Poly"(Polyethylene) with "PVC" (Polyvinyl chloride).

"PVC is formed from long chains of carbon atoms where every other carbon atom has a chlorine atom attached to it. Polyethylene, by contrast, is a large chain of carbon atoms with only hydrogen atoms attached; there are no atoms of chlorine, oxygen or any other elements. Furthermore, while PVC always has the same basic structure, polyethylene is divided into several different types based on the degree of branching from the main chain in each polymer. Some types of polyethylene, such as low-density polyethylene, are highly branched, while other types have a more unbranched structure."

LP inner sleeves are poly lined, not PVC lined. :)

FWIW....
Recently, I got a still sealed vintage album from the mid '70s,
When I opened it, the LP had bit of a mottled haze on it. Fortunately, wet cleaning saved it and it plays and looks like new.:)

EtchWear
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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by EtchWear » 02 May 2016 07:24

paulverizzo wrote:@etchwear: Forgive me if you mentioned this, but did these sleeves decay or destroy the disks? Or, is it "just" visual? Not to diminish the pain.....
No, so far I have only found visual damage ... but i have not had time to listen to all these yet, also some looks so damaged i am not sure i want my needle to drop by

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by paulverizzo » 03 May 2016 02:45

@VinyldechezPierre: I reread your post again and unless I'm missing something, I think we hear a pretty similar drummer.

I stand by my comment about some photographers proud of archival processing as a sales point yet the image sucks. Perhaps by cliched subject matter, or poor composition, or poor contrast control. No, these are not photographers your family agency would handle. I'm talking week end art fests, farmers markets, that type of thing. But not only there.

Some years ago when I was working on a masters degree, a van load of us students went to Santa Fe, NM. There was this fellow student that I didn't know, but we started becoming friends. One night we were wandering through the La Fonda Hotel, and there was this closed art gallery, IIRC, all photo prints by the same guy. (Talk about a hobby business!) New Friend and I look at this big print behind the front glass of a plains thunder head. I don't know who made the first comment, but we wound up shredding the work. From what we now both call "pretty picture," cliche to abysmal exposure/developing/printing techniques. Turns out New Friend is a Brooks School of Photography grad. This is the type of photography that relies of "archival" for a selling point, despite being totally crappy art and technique.

And you know Larry is right because he collects vinyl and plays them on a tube amp. :)

Whether you choose to read my posts or not is your decision. I don't post for popularity.

Carry on.

tzrebiec
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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by tzrebiec » 29 May 2016 05:19

Thanks. A good wash did the trick. I also encountered the problem on a London disk. Again a wet wash worked.

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Blackout- » 18 Jun 2016 16:29

EtchWear wrote: may this problem also be dependent on the vinyl compound used in the actual LPs ?

a combo of high temperature, closed environment, heavy pvc sleeves and bad vinyl compound ? except my 'planet earth' and 'girls on film' US 12" promos none of my american/canadian pressings suffer this although kept in pvc sleeves like my UKs
Hi all,

I have probably 2000 or so records. 500 of them had PVC covers on them (until I found this thread!!). I live in Australia (Melbourne).

I am horrified to find well over 100 of my records have suffered from this exact "misting". Every one that suffered in my whole collection, was in a PVC cover from the 80s. To say there is something going on here is an understatement!! I am gutted. I have lost at least 100 of my best records. :(

Something Etchwear said struck a chord with me. Some pressings seem to have been more volatile to this problem than others. Actually to put it more specifically, some record labels. CBS (Sony), EMI and Festival records seem to suffer the worst for me. (festival pressed Crystalis and Mushroom also). This problem is a big one for many in Australia, like myself. Maybe there is some slight difference in the record vinyl formula they used in Australian pressing plants that has a pre-disposition to this problem. Its very possible. I also had some of my rarest UK pressings of Pet Shop Boys to be misted also. But NOT ONE SINGLE US pressing was damaged. Its interesting that another post mentioned this also. Hmmm.

I think its also therefore just as plausible that the problem could also be the particular PVC formula used in Australia also. My PVC covers were mostly Billy Guyatts, Brashs and Central Station, before they were ceremoniously ripped from my shelf and dumped in the rubbish. I am told all 3 brands came from the one PVC cover manufacturer in Australia. Maybe the problem is also that our PVC covers in Australia were made with some contaminant?


There is another factor at play here I believe. Why would none of my US pressings be affected? maybe its (as I mentioned) the chemical composition of the vinyl compound used in the US...it simply isn't causing a reaction with the Aussie PVC covers. But theres something else. US cardboard covers are SOLID. The cardboard is white inside the sleeve, dense, strong, thick. The outside of a US pressing cover looks smooth, flat, almost polished cardboard. Now lets look at an Australian pressing...made out of this cheap and nasty brown cardboard, almost a glorified brown paper bag composition, thinner, not as strong, big chunks of flecks through it, a dull color image on the front, and lots of bumps when you run your hand over the cover. Try getting water on an AU cover and ...watch the cardboard blister and swell up like a sponge. Spill water on a US cover...watch it bead, and just wipe it off the slick wax cover. Point is....I believe the US covers are more dense and its simply harder for the PVC leeching chemicals to get through to reach the vinyl.

Ill give you a perfect example.

my Pet shop Boys - Actually AU pressing in PVC....MISTED (RUINED).
my Pet Shop Boys - Actually - SOUTH AFRICA pressing in the same PVC cover, literally right beside it on the shelf and not touched since the 80s....perfect condition. Different vinyl compound, and a cardboard cover that you could chop lettuce with it is so tough (=dense).

Here is what I have put the problem down to:

1:/ The record has to be covered in a PVC cover, or be stored NEXT TO a record on a shelf or in a crate that has a PVC cover (in which case youll get only the side facing the adjacent PVC to be misted).
2:/ The PVC cover has to be at least 30 years old.
3:/ The record has to have been stored in a place where heat was at least some minor factor over the 30 years.
4:/ The PVC cover has to have "bubbled" and stiffened (ie the plastic broken down). which causes some kind of leeching of chemicals in the process.
5:/ The record has to have been untouched for a long time for the chemical process to do its evil work.
6:/ The actual vinyl that the record is made from needs to be "compatible" with the nasty leeched chemical that comes from the PVC cover.
7:/ The cardboard sleeve needs to be thin, or have a hole in the centre (ie Disco Cover) or be made of porus and cheap quality cardboard to allow the PVC chemicals to leech through it relatively easily.
8:/ The records need to be stored TIGHTLY TOGETHER SO NO AIR/CIRCULATION CAN TAKE PLACE.

Note my last point. This is also crucial. I had an old guy in a second hand record store give me this new piece of the puzzle. He had a lot of records on his racks in the PVC covers and I mentioned the problem and he said "Yes ...its a real problem... I see it all the time, but it doesn't happen to my records in the shop because they are sitting nice and loose in the rack...see??". All of the records that this problem happened to me with were jammed into a crate tightly together. I believe this "traps" the leeched chemicals from the PVC cover and sends it towards the vinyl record.

Importantly, note that the inner vinyl poly "bag" is not a factor for me. I personally don't think it has anything to do with the problem. I have had records in PVC covers with the cardboard cover and just paper inner sleeves...misted. Ive had records in a cardboard cover and NO inner sleeve whatsoever...misted. In both of these cases the misting is very even and flat..almost looks like milk has been spilt on the vinyl and smudged around. And ive had records that have PVC covers, cardboard sleeves and inner poly bags "misted" too. But in these cases often the folds in the inner poly bag seem to print a pattern. So personally I think the only thing the poly bags are doing is possibly getting in the way of the reaction a little and causing the reaction to be "uneven". But I don't think the poly bag is responsible.

I desperately hope someone does come up with a "cure". I'm crying. Of course you put your rarest and best records in a cover, thinking they will be the best protected and they are the ones that are now getting damaged, its an evil double-blow that your most prized records are the ones that are being destroyed by this massive problem.

ive tried a lot of things, all the obvious sprays and rubs and moved onto other experimental ones. One was Sellys "Exit Mould". Hell I have 100 records to practice on so I am gonna try 200 things (one for each side). Ive also tried my daughters "Sudocream" (Which is an anti fungal). no go either. Nothing has worked yet. But I do have some hope, one thing has seemed to make a slight difference.....

play the record all the way through, on 33rpm, with a heavy stylus. Maybe 3g or more. Seems to "loosen" up the surface somewhat. Then rub HARD after playing with a cloth and record spray. Seems to reduce the misting around 20% or so for me. Of course its not gone, but in areas of weaker misting it seems to have reduced it further from being obvious. Doesn't seem to remove peaks of strong misting tho. The investigation continues.

Hope this post helps.
Cheers,
Blackout

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by davidsss » 19 Jun 2016 08:08

Hi Blackout. interesting points you make. What is so confusing about this is that it is so inconsistent. I live in Melbourne too and have the very same PVC covers and I haven't had any issues. That said, I am slowly removing the old PVC covers, too many people have reported problems, this is clearly an issue.

I think it has to do with hot weather too. While Melbourne is not the hottest place we both know it can get well over 40 (of course it isn't even getting well over 10 today, so quite variable). Also, air conditioning has only become common in the last decade or so. Our houses have been very hot in the past.

I pack my records fairly tight but you could always squeeze another 10 or so onto any of my shelves, which are like bookshelves but made specifically for records.

Those old PVC covers certainly get stiff after 30 years in our climate.

This is unbelievably difficult to pin down since our experiences are very similar but the outcomes different.

As for the covers, not sure if the thickness is the difference there. Thin or thick cardboard won't change whether water beads on a cover, however, the coating will make all the difference. Sounds like those US albums have much better coating on the cardboard the sleeves are made of.

DS

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Blackout- » 19 Jun 2016 14:22

this problem is quite hard to photograph. But here is one of my misted / damaged records.

RIP Limited Edition 4 track Icehouse EP :(
IMG_0980 damaged misted vinyl.JPG
(870.17 KiB) Downloaded 897 times

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Blackout- » 20 Jun 2016 06:54

davidsss wrote:Hi Blackout. interesting points you make. What is so confusing about this is that it is so inconsistent. DS
heya DS nice to meet a fellow Melbournian on Vinyl Engine! yes it is frustratingly inconsistent but after pulling off over 500 PVC covers and taking a deep breath every time before rolling out the vinyl and getting a 1 in 5 strike rate of misting, I feel like I started being able to predict if there was going to be trouble from the minute I held the cover in my hand and began looking at it. Towards the end I was getting fairly good at predicting trouble, and that's how I came up with those points.

The thing about temperature is not sold for me I mean we really don't have cooking temps in Melbourne, it gets up there occasionally on a hot day around 30 deg C but normally we float in 20deg or so average , and really California is a *LOTT* hotter all year round. Plus my records have been in my air-conditioned bedroom since I was a kid. ( I dunno who said that Aircon has only been around for 10 years? ive had aircon in my parents house since I was born in the 70s man).

Its possible that heat plays a part to help start the process to some degree but I am suspicious more and more about the particular formulation of the Aussie PVC covers, coupled with our crappy quality brown flimsy cardboard covers we were issued with in this country from the cheap-ass record labels that acted as very little barrier for petrochemicals to get to the vinyl surface and start their evil reaction. when i talk about water beading I'm just using it to describe the open pores and rough surface of the cheap cardboard they used in AU, as opposed to the almost thick and solid white artist card they used in the US which was a lot more dense and able to make a far smoother surface, simply because the particle sizes that make it up are smaller. I think it just acts as a better barrier from the PVC chemicals. I mean some people have said that they had a promo card or something inside the sleeve of a misted record and it misted in a shape around the promo card. Just another example of how more barriers between the vinyl surface and the PVC = less misting.

Cheers,
Blackout

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by davidsss » 20 Jun 2016 12:12

Interesting comments, given you have had aircon for years it looks like heat is not the main factor.

Certainly the record cover is a factor but the question remains, what is happening to the PVC which leeches through a cover with less coating?

In some ways the answer isn't all that relevant, just time to get rid of those old PVC covers.

DS

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by The Gryphon » 20 Jun 2016 12:25

I think the answer has been posted several times....it is the plasticiser which remained after the plastic was made that has caused the problem.

zentao

Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by zentao » 20 Jun 2016 13:14

Interesting...

I bought one used record that had candle wax dripped onto one side. Standard cleaning fluid didn't do anything to the marks but a bit of naptha took them off right away. Followed up with standard cleaning process and that record sounds perfect.

Choice of solvent is important. Have you tried some naptha? Just rub a bit on some of the misting using a q-tip. Crazy as it sounds oil followed by regular cleaning might also dissolve the stuff. Perhaps a light cooking oil followed by cleaning?

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Blackout- » 21 Jun 2016 13:08

I was thinking of starting a thread zentao with all the different methods listed that people have tried.

For instance I tried BBQ cleaning spray last nite. We can cross that one off...ugh. Oh and metal polish also.

you can cross off cooking oil. It makes the vinyl look like the misting has disappeared...you get excited and then when you wash the record and it dries, misting re-appears.

as its been mentioned in this thread several times including by the original thread creator, it seems the vinyl has been eaten into, as opposed to having something deposited on the surface. So ive thought of focusing on something that polishes the vinyl. I think that's more of a possible direction to go with, as opposed to an actual cleaner.

ive never heard of naptha I will do some research! thanks for the advice. lets see.

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by cmarti » 21 Jun 2016 18:01

Hi all,

I just bought two new to me Dio records last week, both came in those PVC thick inner sleeves and they looked glazed at when I checked them out at the record store.

I got them anyways, took them home and cleaned them with my spin cleaner hoping it would remove the "oil" so I guess. It did not and when I play the records you hear this shhh sound which sounds like white noise.

So removing the sleeves they look like distorted like some have mentioned here before. The music sounds great, this just adds unnecessary surface noise to the mix. :(

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by Blackout- » 23 Jun 2016 09:58

classic misting cmarti. you get extra surface noise and, if its misted more on one corner of the side, a "swoosh" as it passes over the misting.

really sad :( welcome to the "misted" family!

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Re: Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

Post by cmarti » 23 Jun 2016 10:44

Blackout- wrote:classic misting cmarti. you get extra surface noise and, if its misted more on one corner of the side, a "swoosh" as it passes over the misting.

really sad :( welcome to the "misted" family!
And the albums are really nice UK and Netherlands pressings :(

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