Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

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Mrs Ritchie Valens
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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by Mrs Ritchie Valens » 12 Sep 2019 14:26

I used my new audio technical record cleaner for the first time a couple of days ago, and it didn't really do anything for the sound of my records. Either, 1. The records need to be cleaned deeper by putting them on a flat serfous, but what kind of a flat serfous? or, 2. Them really can't be cleaned because there just too messed up.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by theclosetguy » 13 Sep 2019 00:54

So the Audio Technica record cleaner is no different than a Disk Washer. You wet the edge of the Brush. You move this around the record to wet the record. Then you roll the brush to the dry edge to dry the set surface. Here is the physical problem with any type of cleaning system that "wicks" away the crude. It does not work. The method you are using only cleans the surface of the record. If you get the record too wet, the surface mess is now pushed into the grooves. And wicking will never remove the build up. When I was younger I ruined so many records believing people when they said I could clean my records using these surface cleaning devices. Or soaking them in dishwasher soap or shampoo and then running them through a clean water bath and letting them airdry. The wet mess needs to be sucked out by vacuum or vibrated out by ultrasonic.
If it is left to dry, it screws up the record even more.
If you read all the threads they eventually lead to someone saying they had to do some kind of DIY set up to vacuum the record. Or, the poster will finally admit to buying a record cleaning machine with vacuum. And then will say how much better the record sound.
After all my years of being on these forums, I've come to realize that many feel spending $50.00 on 10 cheap things is better then spending $500 on one really good thing. Or They have the ability and time to go the DIY route.
Getting good sound out of a record can be easy. It's how its executed that leads to all the problems.
As for your comment that because your $19.00 cleaning brush can not clean the record so the record must be bad is more mis-information. It only cleans the surface. The grooves are still dirty
Mike M

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by vince1 » 13 Sep 2019 03:44

I'm with Mike on this, and have additional thoughts. To me the main attraction of a vacuum type device is trying to achieve maximal dilution. When you suck away liquid that has solubilized contaminants, then rinse and suck away again and consider the dilution factors involved, it's very compelling. Any pad type device does almost the opposite: liquids containing contaminants are constantly absorbed into the brush or pad, then smeared onto the next record. There is little to no dilution to remove the contaminants that the detergent solution has extracted. Ask yourself, where do they go? With an RCM, they go right down the drain. With an ultrasonic tank they get diluted in the large tank volume. With a Discwasher or brush, they get absorbed within the very device you are grinding into the next record side. Imagine cleaning your dishes with a sponge that never sees running water, just wiped from one dirty dish to the other.
As to the method being originally discussed here, I am with Ripblade. I am not a proponent of anything that is dry wiped across a record surface, unless it is something that doesn't shed and is of similar triboelectric ranking as the PVC/PVA copolymer. This disqualifies almost anything you buy at a supermarket or hardware store. Debris and static charge are the downfall of so many, yet are so easy to manage.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by cafe latte » 13 Sep 2019 04:08

theclosetguy wrote:
11 Sep 2019 01:26
The most interesting thing I find about all these ridiculous cleaning methods is how someone would actually think they work. Crap gets into the groove.. You have to get the crap out of the groove. The groove is a few hair thicknesses wide. How does wiping the surface of a disk with a cleaning cloth, penetrate into the groove to lift out the crap.
Archivists use some mechanical method to clean a record. It will always include applying a fluid and then removing the fluid with some type of vacuum. You can fool yourself all you want. Just washing a record and letting it air dry does not work. The crap is still down in the grooves. Using a "disk-washer" type of device will push the stuff further down into the groove when it softens with the liquid applied. Spinning a record may remove some of the crud, but definitely only a small amount
Stop all the nonsense. Buy a record cleaning machine that will pull the fluid/crud out . Stop wasting money on all the hokey ideas. The amount of time and money wasted could easily pay for a real record cleaning system. Everyone laughs at the audiophiles for spending money on alchemy. The real joke is all those of you insist on believing they have found the new nirvanah of record cleaning and spending money on it when it's been found 40 years ago.
Mike M
If you look at a piece of record under a microscope after cleaning it is evident that disc washer cleaners do a rather good job of cleaning and don't push dirt further into the groove at all. Experiments with very dirty charity shop records, then clean then examine prove this.
Chris

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by vince1 » 13 Sep 2019 12:40

I think you are proving Mike's point: you are only looking at visible surface debris. It's the audible stuff that matters. We've done many tests on all types of records and a mere wiping does little to solve the problem. This is why people hear noise on brand new records that have been wiped down. To be free of background noise, they need to be wet cleaned thoroughly, with contaminants extracted and static neutralized (preferably with agents that maintain adequate lubrication).

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by theclosetguy » 13 Sep 2019 22:38

thanks Vince.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by cafe latte » 14 Sep 2019 01:02

vince1 wrote:
13 Sep 2019 12:40
I think you are proving Mike's point: you are only looking at visible surface debris. It's the audible stuff that matters. We've done many tests on all types of records and a mere wiping does little to solve the problem. This is why people hear noise on brand new records that have been wiped down. To be free of background noise, they need to be wet cleaned thoroughly, with contaminants extracted and static neutralized (preferably with agents that maintain adequate lubrication).
A cheap disc washer does not use vacuum records dry in a rack which is what I use and what I used for my experiment and grooves were very very clean, which was my point The disc washer has brushes submerged in cleaning solution, the brushes do not just push the dirt into the grooves records come out very very clean indeed even under high magnification. As long as cleaning solution is not reused and the one that comes with the disc washer is not used. Water with a few drops of detergent, with isopropyl alcohol added, the amount dependant on how dirty the record is. When a batch of records are cleaned next rinse each record under tap protecting avoiding label and then I squirt the record with distilled water to the point of run off. Some people actually rewash the records after rinsing in the washer with distilled but a good wetting seems to be enough to avoid drying marks. This process leaves grooves super clean.
Chris

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by vince1 » 14 Sep 2019 02:49

OK, but what happens to the contaminants the Discwasher absorbs? Do you soak, rinse, and clean it after every pass? Nobody does. They just apply it to the next side. As a result, cross contamination occurs. It was an easy man's design in the '70's; we are way passed that now. Even the D4 solution was poor. Sorry, but technology moves forward, regardless of application, and we need to embrace it. Just my opinion.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by ripblade » 14 Sep 2019 03:12

The original Discwasher was never intended to be a wet clean record washer, but an on-deck duster that used humidity to help dust stick to the bristles. Compared to the other 'cleaners' available at the time, it was pretty good if used and maintained correctly.

I understand there's a new one based on a full wet cleaning system with replaceable pads. It's not something I'd recommend, for all the reasons vince1 listed above.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by bra10n » 14 Sep 2019 04:29

Let me share my cleaning process :lol:

Like most on here I have the need to clean both new and 2nd hand records when they first come into my possession and before they touch any stylus. It seems to me that if we are talking about cleaning by hand then there are 2 schools of thought... for example to clean a particular grubby second-hand find, some will clean over a number of times while some aim to go the 'heavy-handed' route and clean once. I fall into the second category :D

I use a particular formulation of electronic circuit board cleaner in conjunction with dishwashing liquid and ordinary running tap water, period. I DO NOT WIPE anything on a record, wet or dry. A simple shake and the excess water is gone and then these are placed in a rack to dry. No water marks, no need to clean twice 8)

This is a method I trialled over the space of 12 months, incorporating 10 cleans... after the first clean the sample was left for 3 months, and the a subsequent clean every month thereafter. I have found no adverse reaction to any record (not shellac) cleaned this way.

The product contains the following:

%[weight] Name

30-60 isopropanol
30-60 n-hexane
<10 acetone
30-60 hydrocarbon propellant

The key to this product being ideal IMO is it's miscibility.

YMMV.

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by cafe latte » 14 Sep 2019 05:14

ripblade wrote:
14 Sep 2019 03:12
The original Discwasher was never intended to be a wet clean record washer, but an on-deck duster that used humidity to help dust stick to the bristles. Compared to the other 'cleaners' available at the time, it was pretty good if used and maintained correctly.

I understand there's a new one based on a full wet cleaning system with replaceable pads. It's not something I'd recommend, for all the reasons vince1 listed above.
Mine is a disco antistat ad it has brushes not pads which I think are better than pads.
Chris

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by cafe latte » 14 Sep 2019 05:17

vince1 wrote:
14 Sep 2019 02:49
OK, but what happens to the contaminants the Discwasher absorbs? Do you soak, rinse, and clean it after every pass? Nobody does. They just apply it to the next side. As a result, cross contamination occurs. It was an easy man's design in the '70's; we are way passed that now. Even the D4 solution was poor. Sorry, but technology moves forward, regardless of application, and we need to embrace it. Just my opinion.
I wash about 8 records max, which all get rinsed too. Fluid it disposed of and brushes and trough washed out. They come out seriously clean, I have even manged to clean some charity shop messes to very clean indeed. I do though rinse first if a record is very very dirty the same as you would wet a car before cleaning it is it was very dirty.
Chris

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by countingteeth » 14 Sep 2019 07:26

cafe latte wrote:
14 Sep 2019 05:17
vince1 wrote:
14 Sep 2019 02:49
OK, but what happens to the contaminants the Discwasher absorbs? Do you soak, rinse, and clean it after every pass? Nobody does. They just apply it to the next side. As a result, cross contamination occurs. It was an easy man's design in the '70's; we are way passed that now. Even the D4 solution was poor. Sorry, but technology moves forward, regardless of application, and we need to embrace it. Just my opinion.
I wash about 8 records max, which all get rinsed too. Fluid it disposed of and brushes and trough washed out. They come out seriously clean, I have even manged to clean some charity shop messes to very clean indeed. I do though rinse first if a record is very very dirty the same as you would wet a car before cleaning it is it was very dirty.
Chris

The contaminants the Discwasher absorbs go into the bath of a Disco Anti-Stat ?

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by cafe latte » 14 Sep 2019 09:19

countingteeth wrote:
14 Sep 2019 07:26
cafe latte wrote:
14 Sep 2019 05:17
vince1 wrote:
14 Sep 2019 02:49
OK, but what happens to the contaminants the Discwasher absorbs? Do you soak, rinse, and clean it after every pass? Nobody does. They just apply it to the next side. As a result, cross contamination occurs. It was an easy man's design in the '70's; we are way passed that now. Even the D4 solution was poor. Sorry, but technology moves forward, regardless of application, and we need to embrace it. Just my opinion.
I wash about 8 records max, which all get rinsed too. Fluid it disposed of and brushes and trough washed out. They come out seriously clean, I have even manged to clean some charity shop messes to very clean indeed. I do though rinse first if a record is very very dirty the same as you would wet a car before cleaning it is it was very dirty.
Chris

The contaminants the Discwasher absorbs go into the bath of a Disco Anti-Stat ?
The bath is large and if 8 records are cleaned and rinsed there are no issues.
Chris

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Re: Cleaning Vinyl (Again!)- An Interesting Method

Post by countingteeth » 14 Sep 2019 10:49

cafe latte wrote:
14 Sep 2019 09:19
countingteeth wrote:
14 Sep 2019 07:26
cafe latte wrote:
14 Sep 2019 05:17

I wash about 8 records max, which all get rinsed too. Fluid it disposed of and brushes and trough washed out. They come out seriously clean, I have even manged to clean some charity shop messes to very clean indeed. I do though rinse first if a record is very very dirty the same as you would wet a car before cleaning it is it was very dirty.
Chris

The contaminants the Discwasher absorbs go into the bath of a Disco Anti-Stat ?
The bath is large and if 8 records are cleaned and rinsed there are no issues.
Chris
Are you sure you are using this :

https://www.etsy.com/listing/126938646/ ... -record-lp