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Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

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Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Roy Boy » 14 Feb 2016 22:29

I am thinking about ripping vinyl. I have collection of 2500 or so albums. I have a pretty decent analog front end (refurbed Technics SP10 MKII, Basis Vector arm, Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC, Tom Tutay tube phono pre). I have a Lumin A1 for streaming from Synology NAS. My objective would be to rip to the NAS and stream with Lumin. I would want to the quality of the rip to be close to or equal to playing vinyl.

I see this new Korg DS-DAC-10R which looks to be pretty reasonable ($599) and gives you the option of ripping at up to 24-192 or 2xDSD which would let you experiment which which resolution is best. Storage is cheap these days...so the size of DSD or 24/192 is not really an issue.

My question is has anyone tried this Korg and what was your experience? I am also interested in the workflow to get to the point of having all the metadata and art work tagged. I have some experience ripping Blu-ray audio or DVD-A with MAKEMV,
DVD Audio Extractor and tagging with Metadatics. Thanks in advance for your insights.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby goofytwoshoes » 18 Feb 2016 00:59

I've just barely started to copy LPs to 2.8 DSD, via the mic inputs of a Korg MR-2 digital recorder. This allows me to bypass my preamp and do the RIAA correction with Korg's AudioGate4 software. Seems to work quite well. I've copied a small handful of favourite LPs so far. Before I continue, I will copy same LPs using my tube preamp with phono input, and compare to determine which I like best. This is my first experience digitizing LPs, and I haven't sorted out workflow yet.

The Korg 10R looks like an interesting product. I'm surprised that there doesn't seem to be much interest in it so far. If sound quality is on par with their DS DAC 100 and 100m, it is an excellent product at a competitive price. I have the 100m DAC, my son has the 100, and we both love the sound quality and ease of use with AudioGate3 and AudioGate4
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby monumonu » 26 Feb 2016 12:34

Hi there,

Just began to rip few Lps with the Dac-10r.
DSD128 gives great results, very opened stage, detailed and clear sound.
It's like you dont ask anything else, just listen musique :wink:

Audiogate is also very good at exporting pcm files if needed. The converted flac 96/24 files for exemple are pretty close to the original dsd128.

Tried a direct setup with my Rega plugged straight to the Korg (phono input mode), applying RIAA correction after with Audiogate.
It was just a try cause I have a moving coil cartridge with low output (Denon DL-103R), and the Korg is set to 47KOhm and MM cartridge gain, so it's not what we need for the Denon.

By the way the result is quite good, with 30db gain and RIAA applied in Audiogate. But not as good as using the phono pre (ear 834P) straight to the line input.

Didn't try markers and split already...

To be continued...
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Roy Boy » 27 Feb 2016 15:01

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds promising. How close do you feel the rip sounds to the source vinyl? Not that I am planning to get rid of the vinyl...I am just wondering if the rip is good enough to replace listening to the vinyl in your main system. Thanks
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby rich12 » 27 Feb 2016 19:54

Roy Boy wrote:Thanks for the feedback. It sounds promising. How close do you feel the rip sounds to the source vinyl? Not that I am planning to get rid of the vinyl...I am just wondering if the rip is good enough to replace listening to the vinyl in your main system. Thanks


In a blind test and using content with little bass, assuming a high quality DSD recorder and playback DAC, I can't imagine that anyone, audiophile or not, can reliably distinguish between DSD128 and vinyl. If the vinyl was recorded with the speakers off, then the DSD128 might be superior in the bass (no acoustical feedback).

Assuming a high quality PCM DAC, I seriously doubt anyone can reliably distinguish between 24/176 and 24/192 and the vinyl. 24/88 and 24/96 would be difficult, but not impossible, if you focus on violin, acoustic guitar, cymbals and soundstage depth. As with DSD, if the vinyl was recorded with the speakers off, the bass might be better on the recording because there is no feedback. And with PCM you can remove the clicks and pops.

I archived all of my vinyl, made a few comparisons to the vinyl, then sold all of my analog gear. Now, I listen exclusively to the vinyl recordings (with clicks and pops removed). I'd never, ever go back to listening to the discs.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby monumonu » 27 Feb 2016 21:04

You're welcome,

Assuming the point that we'll never record an exact copy of an analog source, I would say the Dac-10R offers a great presentation of it, very close to the feeling I have when I listen the LP.
Same space, dynamic, beautiful highs, strong bass, details, instruments texture, PRAT.

I never think of a digital source when I play back the DSD file. It's like a DSD from masters we buy on the net, with just few more pops added :wink:

So yes, the two sources sound a bit different in my system, but I have the same pleasure to listen one or the other.
It was totally different with my old 96/24 Edirol sound card, witch was only able to offer a "good digital copy" of my LPs, no more.

Hope it helps :wink:
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby monumonu » 29 Feb 2016 01:21

Hi,

I just compared Dac-10R with ifi micro DSD, playing DSD 128 and Hi res pcm files.

I would say same level, 2 different presentations.

The Dac-10r offer a large detailed scene with crystal clear instruments in a very dynamic way.
On the other hand the ifi Micro DSD presents a little more forward scene, may be a bit narrowed, but offer a fuller rich medium/low medium. The sound seems to be fuller and a little bit less detailed compared to the Korg.

By the way both are so pleasant to listen to.
My 2 cents... :wink:
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Mooncalf2012 » 03 May 2016 06:40

I haven't seen much activity on this device in practical use lately. I'm planning on buying one to archive vinyl and reel to reel audio in DSD format. I have had good results with the RIAA pre-amps in devices such as Numark DJ mixers, but looking forward to trying Audiogate curves, which will defeat any noise and distortion that hardware circuits would otherwise introduce. I have been using Audacity to capture and create metadata for iTunes, and I highly recommend buying the very affordable ClickRepair software to process out the pops and clicks. As of this writing, Click Repair does not support DSD file formats and only up to 24/192 PCM. ClickRepair RT comes with ClickRepair, which does real-time Click Removal, which with a device like the Korg DAC, (Or any good DAC, for that matter) would allow one to enjoy listening to an album in the digital stream, whilst capturing. Even vinyl captured in 24/96 is much more enjoyable once the pops and clicks have been eradicated, so why not enjoy it that much more during capture time, if that is possible. I would like to see Korg purchase this software, or for more people to support Click Repair so their product can become even better, (currently it is programmed in Java). Having one more tool like Click Repair built into Audiogate, would make it even more valuable as package marketed to vinyl enthusiasts. BTW, I mention reel to reel, and ClickRepair app does a great job of cleaning up artifacts on tape too, plus they have an optional DeNoise and Equalizer programs too, and at a price much lower than Adobe Audition. (I have Audition, and Audacity, and neither of them work as well as Click Repair. Check them out, it's amazing software.) I'll try to re-post when I get a chance to "Audition" all of these products combined...
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Mooncalf2012 » 08 May 2016 15:36

One thing I hear a lot of people saying, is that once they have a good, high quality rip, with the pops and clicks removed, is that they no longer need the vinyl source. It doesn't matter if you can't hear a perceptible difference, the recording you are listening to after ripping will always be exactly the same. An analog LP, or Tape recording will always sound slightly different each time you play it, therefore, it is a 'new' experience each time, and is one of the things that makes analog a novel experience, and not so tiring to the ears. What you have with a 'rip' is a 'photograph' of one play of the album, no matter what frequencies you can capture. Some albums sound better after many plays, grooves get polished, temperature can affect the over-all sound, etc. I rarely go back and listen to my CD collection anymore, it's as if it never really changes, and gets boring and predictable, maybe not at a perceptible level, but some part of me will always prefer the real thing, the things you can't capture, that is, if you're sensitive enough to notice them.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby VinyldechezPierre » 28 May 2016 09:55

I do not recommend the use of de-clicking, de-popping, de-crackling software. As they are usually used anyway.

Yes, it would be nice not to have any of those sounds but when you remove them, you're also removing another set of sounds which are part of the music. So, you are removing music.

A much more labor intensive way, but giving a much nicer end result, is to remove the worst offenders manually, one-by-one, then do a restore which rebuilds the waveform in that area. But don't ask me which software allows this, it's been too long since I've done any ripping.

One thing that should be obvious but I will say it anyway, start by washing the records you want to digitize. The cleaner the record the better the end result. Of course, the shape of your vinyl will also have an effect on the result. But with older vinyl, we sometimes can't Help what we're starting with.

The last thing, and maybe the most important, is to be ok with some noises which are part of the vinyl experience.

Cheers.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Roy Boy » 05 Jul 2016 21:10

I took the plunge and bought the Korg DA-DAC-10R. I started experimented with ripping vinyl. One limitation I had was that my Lumin A1 streamer would not support DSD128 only DSD64, but I discovered that by I installing Minimstreamer on my Synology NAS I could transcode Dsd128 to WAV 24/384. So my experiment was to compare ripping at 24/192 vs DSD128. I also invested in a Wireworld Platinum USB cable based on the recommendation of a friend. What I found was that I really liked 24/192 but the DSD128 contained more detail/info. Things like the soundstage clues (if there is one) and other small details. It was a little difficult to compare as the playback volume of the DSD128 was lower than the 24/192 even though they were both ripped with the same input gain
I think in some ways the ripped file is superior to the vinyl playback since you totally remove any issues of acoustic feedback influencing the performance of the table/arm/cartridge at high playback volumes. I am quite pleased other than the amount of time it takes to rip and tag an album
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby billfort » 09 Jul 2016 01:22

I am experimenting with ripping vinyl straight to DSD5.6 with the DS-DAC-10R, and playing it back via the Korg or a Resonessence Concero HD as DSD5.6. Turntable is a VPI Aries Series-1, Zyx Airy 3X-SB MC, Sonic Frontiers SFP-1 phono into the Korg. Playback of NAS stored files via i7 Skylake based dedicated player PC running Roon & HQplayer, Wireworld Starlight 7 USB cable to an Uptone Audio Regen, hard connector to the Korg (or Concero). Regen is on a benchtop linear/regulated PS which ultimately supplies these USB powered DACs.

Very happy with the first few recordings I’ve attempted; the air, soundstage depth, detail and presence I love about my vinyl front-end is there without the glare, edge or cardboard cut-out imaging I often hear in digital. This might be very much about capturing the color and shadings I’ve come to like in my turntable set-up or maybe feeding my preferred digital playback method (DSD5.6) in a more direct way, but I really like the results so far. I have no desire to take these recordings into the PCM realm for de-clicking, DSP, etc. then back to DSD – a little noise doesn’t bother me with vinyl and the fact that the clean and simple path straight to DSD sounds so good has me pretty convinced to keep it simple – less is more.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby ehart » 10 Jul 2016 18:43

Hi,

As mentioned in this thread, I haven't seen a lot of "real world" feedback on this device, which looks very interesting. I do have a few questions.

Is there any gain control possible on the line input? This may be important for me (depending on the amount of gain built into the Korg) as my phono stage/preamp doesn't have one. Gain control may be needed when archiving "hot" vinyl.

Has anyone compared thia unit to the GT-40a ADC/DAC or Esprit pre-amp, both from Furutech's Alpha Design Labs?

I am primarily interested in the sound quality of the ADC (for recording vinyl) and DAC (for computer playback). I will not use the headphone amp or phono stage(I have a phono stage that I like already).

How does the sound quality of the ADC and DAC portions of this unit compare to moderately-priced ($500 or less apiece) units that are dedicated to just one or the other of those functions? I generally prefer "detail" over "lushness".

Thank you!

Eric
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby billfort » 10 Jul 2016 22:46

Recording level is adjustable in the Korg Audiogate4 software used to make the recordings – my setup was straight from my (fixed level) phono stage to the Korg – I did not use the Korg's internal phono EQ, just set it to line-in/no EQ.

I don't usually use headphones either, but for recording, I think they are a pretty good idea – leave the main speakers off to reduce any feedback through the turntable for a potentially cleaner recording but use the phones for a precise reference when it comes to monitoring, cue points, pause/record activation, etc.

I wanted DSD5.6 recording, and the only ones I know of that are near the Korg's price are the older (discontinued) Korg MR-2000S and Tascam DA-3000 – both of which are about 2x the price of the DS-DAC-10R. I have heard DSD5.6 recordings from both of these that I really liked (that's what set me on this path) but without using the exact same vinyl front end and record across all 3, any comparison opinion would be mostly worthless.

I have directly compared the Korg to my Resonessence Concero HD DAC using DSD5.6 vinyl rips, DSD releases and PCM upscaled to DSD5.6 (using HQPlayer) and the Korg is really close – I still think I like the Concero a touch better but then the Korg appears to be a pretty good DSD ADC – and that's huge to me.
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Re: Anyone try Korg DS-DAC-10R for ripping?

Postby Roy Boy » 12 Jul 2016 02:55

Now that I have been experimenting with ripping I have run into an issue that I am not sure I know how to address. I am ripping to 5.5Mhz DSF. I have the output of my Tom Tutay tube phono directly into the line input of the Korg. I set the recording level as high as I can without clipping and even use the normalize function on export that raises the recording level as high as possible without clipping. In my playback I am transcoding the 5.6Mhz DSF file to WAV 24/384 via Minimstreamer since my Lumin A1 cannot playback of 5.5 MHz DSF. My issue is that at player the I indeed to really crank the volume on my preamp compared with playing the same album vinyl. For example I ripped the new MFSL 45rpm Brothers in Arms. When I play the vinyl with the preamp volume at 12 o'clock I need to crank up the volume to 3 o'clock to reach the same volume on the ripped file
The volume level for the ripped vinyl is much higher than I typically need for downloads from HDTracks. I have a gain structure issue somewhere. Not sure if there is anything I can do in the ripping process to get a hotter ripped file?
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