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Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

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Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Allsop » 22 Mar 2018 12:34

I have a Technics SL1210 turntable, Nagaoka MP-110 and a Pioneer DJM 400 mixer/amp, focusrite scarlett soundcard

When recording a vinyl I noticed something odd in the spectrograph (Spek) which I use to ensure the recording is truly 96kHz shows that the signal from the DJM400 seems to peak at 38kHz

I pulled out a rip I had done months earlier using the same setup but instead of the DJM400 I had a numark DJ mixer.

Same track:
Numark
Image

Pioneer DJM400:
Image

Direct from SL1210 into Focusrite (RIAA curve applied in audacity and amplified 38db):
Image


To me it seems the pioneer phono stage is so bad it is not hitting the signal that I was getting with the numark mixer.

I was going to buy this to temp solve the issue until I can buy a new mixer that I can trust:

Pro-Ject Phono Box MM Amplifier - Black: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby JoeE SP9 » 22 Mar 2018 22:49

Please tell me what sort of signal you expect from an LP at 38KHz? The only LP's that have a frequency response that goes that high are CD-4 LP's. With regular LP's there is no usable information much above 20KHz.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby analogaudio » 23 Mar 2018 00:45

Audio frequency response charts have frequency across the bottom, say 10Hz to 100kHz using a logarithmic scale. The vertical scale is sound level in decibels typically a 10:1 range or 20dB, and this is also a logarithmic scale. The charts you show are linear frequency and logarithmic sound level, this does not show the important range between 20Hz and 20kHz. I can recommend a different chart system, the one I use is Trueaudio TrueRTA for the PC.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Allsop » 23 Mar 2018 13:53

JoeE SP9 wrote:Please tell me what sort of signal you expect from an LP at 38KHz? The only LP's that have a frequency response that goes that high are CD-4 LP's. With regular LP's there is no usable information much above 20KHz.


Ok so anything I see in purple on those charts your saying are just pointless?

I just figured I see something is there on my original rip therefore why is it not showing via this new equipment it must be at fault. Obviously there was something there but as your pointing out it is probably unhearable
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Allsop » 23 Mar 2018 13:58

analogaudio wrote:Audio frequency response charts have frequency across the bottom, say 10Hz to 100kHz using a logarithmic scale. The vertical scale is sound level in decibels typically a 10:1 range or 20dB, and this is also a logarithmic scale. The charts you show are linear frequency and logarithmic sound level, this does not show the important range between 20Hz and 20kHz. I can recommend a different chart system, the one I use is Trueaudio TrueRTA for the PC.


I used Spek to initially just see if a FLAC was real or a mp3 re-encoded but what im learning here is that in terms of sound I can actually hear ripping at 96kHz is a pointless exercise and as long as the inputs going from 0 to 20kHz on that software you pointed me to it will be fine.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby billshurv » 23 Mar 2018 16:16

The ultrasonics are >100dB down so below the room noise floor. Even if you could hear them they would be lost in the noise. unwanted crud IMO.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby jdjohn » 23 Mar 2018 23:18

I think the Numark was adding the noise, and the Pioneer is better/quieter.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Sunwire » 24 Mar 2018 00:09

If the Pioneer is giving you the same (as far as I can see) results as going directly into the Focusrite, then the Pioneer is more accurate.
The Numark is adding stuff that wasn't in the original signal.
That stuff is either noise or distortion.
Which model Numark is it?

96kHz sampling rate can give better results than lower rates, but whether you can hear the difference is another question.
Do some tests and see for yourself.
Some folks say they can hear the difference, others say they can't.
My subjective and uncontrolled listening makes me think I can hear a slight improvement at 96kHz, but if I conducted controlled tests, I'm doubtful I could hear a difference.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby JoeE SP9 » 24 Mar 2018 02:27

IME ripping LP's at 16/48 is more than adequate.
16 bits allows for a dynamic range of 96dB. That's 20dB higher than even the best LP.
A sampling rate of 48KHz easily allows for a frequency response that exceeds 20KHz. That's more than all but CD-4 LP's have. Most LP's have little to no signal above 17KHz.

Incidentally: You need a cartridge capable of tracking to 40KHz+ and a dedicated CD-4 decoder to extract the four channel CD-4 signal. The Shibata stylus shape was invented specifically for tracking CD-4 LP's
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby jdjohn » 24 Mar 2018 02:48

Audacity's default settings work for me, and you can't beat the price! :D
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Allsop » 25 Mar 2018 01:19

Thanks everyone for taking the time to post.

I have settled with the pioneer into focusrite. There is a strange line appearing at 33kHz on the pic but what I usually do when ripping is this:

1. Record 5 seconds of nothing but the needle resting on the vinyl (not spinning)
2. press start and record.
3. Use Izotope RX5 to analyse the 5 seconds at the start and then I remove that
4. I then try to clear up any remaining noise before record begins and any clicks/pops
5. Export as 16bit using noise shaping mbit
6. Open in audacity and downsample to 16/48 and save
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Werner » 29 Mar 2018 06:05

1) the bulk of signal above 20kHz off LP is cartridge distortion. There is precious little valid ultrasonic information, and this only on precious few LPs.

2) in any digital audio signal processing flow wordlength reduction/dither/noise shaping should be the very last step!

3) If you have access to iZotope, with its state of the art resampler, you really should not use Audacity for this task.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby lreneat » 29 Mar 2018 20:53

I quit recording LP's to cassette tapes 16.5 years ago. Recording LP's to Music CD-R's with stand alone recorder(s) has proven to be the most excellent digital playback medium for me. Less space wasted as well. When I get older I don't want to be fiddling much with records, turntables and cartridges. The last purchase I made of Music CD-R's cost me only 21 cents each for 200 blank Music CD-R's. Shipping was free.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Sunwire » 29 Mar 2018 21:04

What does "Use Izotope RX5 to analyse the 5 seconds at the start and then I remove that" mean?

What are you analyzing?
What is the purpose of analyzing and what do you do with that information?

I made hundreds of rips to recordable CDs. A large number of them are useless now.
Recordable CDs have a limited lifespan that is MUCH shorter than the lifespan of cassettes or LPs.
I quit recording CDs when the price of hard drives came down. I now exclusively rip to my hard drive and then make a backup copies to other hard drives.
Hard drives will eventually fail, but if you make backups, you are pretty safe.
Recordable CDs are just not a very good storage medium. Some are better than others, but I don't think I ever found a brand that didn't deteriorate.
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Re: Pioneer poor soundstage cutting at 38kHz

Postby Peter Galbavy » 24 Apr 2018 16:57

Depends on the CD-R. I have a quantity (hundreds) of the Kodak gold CD-Rs that are rated for 100 years+ for performance and so far I've never had a problem - as opposed to the unbranded stuff (generic CD-R and DVD+/-R are rubbish)
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