Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

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JDJX
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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 30 Jul 2019 18:54

Another BTW.... :)

I think that we have all seen laughable pics of listing environments in a room with all bare walls and sparse furniture.
However. they also have all kinds of bass traps and sound diffusers.

if anyone is familiar with "Live From Daryl's House" it just the room its self and al the things in it that make it sound so great.
No bass traps or sound diffusers are needed. :)

I will concede that an occasional well placed sound diffuser can be helpful at times but, one should not rely on them exclusively :)


lenjack
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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by lenjack » 30 Jul 2019 20:52

I've found that too many records have no real bass on them at all. They seem to roll off severely below about 70Hz. I have a few from the 70's and 80's, that with the bass all the way up, and a sub working, still lack bass. Yes tone controls are there to be used.

JDJX
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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 30 Jul 2019 21:20

JoeE SP9 wrote:
17 Jun 2019 21:14
The variable loudness control on many Yamaha products is IMO a definite plus. The only thing I really miss from my old SP-3 is the variable loudness control. It was used regularly while the tone controls got almost no use.
In realty, a pre amp's bass and treble tone controls are a variable loudness control .
When you tun the volume down, you simply turn up the bass and treble until it sounds right to you.

After all.... increasing bass and treble is all a loudness button does. :)

JDJX
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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 30 Jul 2019 21:29

lenjack wrote:
30 Jul 2019 20:52
I've found that too many records have no real bass on them at all. They seem to roll off severely below about 70Hz. I have a few from the 70's and 80's, that with the bass all the way up, and a sub working, still lack bass. Yes tone controls are there to be used.
How many have, or have heard an LP like this...

There is just a singer with an acoustical guitar .
So, some genius when mastering it decided that there was not enough bass. So, they just increased the bass of the whole recording ....vocal and all.
A cut in the baas tone control can make it more listenable.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JoeE SP9 » 30 Jul 2019 22:14

JDJX wrote:
30 Jul 2019 21:20
JoeE SP9 wrote:
17 Jun 2019 21:14
The variable loudness control on many Yamaha products is IMO a definite plus. The only thing I really miss from my old SP-3 is the variable loudness control. It was used regularly while the tone controls got almost no use.
In realty, a pre amp's bass and treble tone controls are a variable loudness control .
When you tun the volume down, you simply turn up the bass and treble until it sounds right to you.

After all.... increasing bass and treble is all a loudness button does. :)
Very true. However, a properly implemented and used variable loudness control has a reference point that it starts with. That's why the ones on Yamaha, Nakamichi and Audio Research SP3's are referenced to the loudest volume you use. They are used to lower the volume from that point. When I had an SP-3 I found few occasions to use the tone controls. The loudness control was good enough for me.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 21 Aug 2019 23:29

BTW..
I previously said that I only have a 3db cut in the 120 hz band and another in the 2k hz band on my 10 band EQ.

I'm a firm a believer that just a few minor adjustments in the frequency balance can often be all you might need. 'If it (a freq band) aint broken, don't fix it. :)

In reality, I could not decide if I needed a cut in the 1k band or in the 2k band, I kept going back and forth on this.
However last week I tried a cut in both bands together.. After some critical listening for a few days with different genres of music, that was exactly what I needed ..... :)

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JoeE SP9 » 24 Aug 2019 20:00

I prefer measurements. My DSP (12 band p/c parametric) was set using measurements.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 24 Aug 2019 20:52

IMO... the only measurement that is valid is one's ears. :)

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JoeE SP9 » 24 Aug 2019 22:18

To achieve flat(er) in room response is why I have a DSP. I'm mature enough and modest enough to admit that measurements are more accurate than my ears. If I don't like the results from measurements (didn't/doesn't happen) I can always tweak as much as I desire.

Using measurements to achieve flater in room response gives me a neutral starting point. Most listeners will not get that by using only their ears.

I've heard all the arguments about making a system sound good to yourself. IME, the flatter my in room response the better I like the sound. As with everything in this hobby YMMV.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JoeE SP9 » 24 Aug 2019 22:35

lenjack wrote:
30 Jul 2019 20:52
I've found that too many records have no real bass on them at all. They seem to roll off severely below about 70Hz. I have a few from the 70's and 80's, that with the bass all the way up, and a sub working, still lack bass. Yes tone controls are there to be used.
You can't enhance and/or reproduce what is not there.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by lenjack » 25 Aug 2019 00:53

Couldn't agree more.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by NOYB » 25 Aug 2019 03:13

I use the MCACC advanced of my Pioneer SC-25 A/V receiver.
https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/MCACC

It does a pretty good job matching up the room and speakers.
speaker leveling (balance)
9 band EQ + trim for each speaker
3 band parametric (Hz/Q/db) addressing standing waves.
speaker phase (distance)

The SC-25 is a decade old now though so probably they have improved the MCACC and there are now better systems available.

Sorry but it is just not mere mortal ears possible to do some of the stuff that modern electronics can accomplish.

The more that can be done with room acoustics and speakers (selection and placement) probably the better. Then use the electronics to take it the rest of the way.

After the MCACC advanced did it's thing it's just a matter of a tweak or two here or there.

One of the features I really like is the A.L.C mode (Auto Level Control) not only does it help with volume consistency for shuffle mode (TV too) but the bass (loudness) is auto applied depending on volume level. So whether playing background music or rocking out the bass level is taken care of.

Note: The more aggressively an EQ band is applied, the more it will shift the phase. Though there may be some digital EQ's that compensate for that they are probably very high end.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by JDJX » 21 Sep 2019 23:52

JoeE SP9 wrote:
24 Aug 2019 22:35
lenjack wrote:
30 Jul 2019 20:52
I've found that too many records have no real bass on them at all. They seem to roll off severely below about 70Hz. I have a few from the 70's and 80's, that with the bass all the way up, and a sub working, still lack bass. Yes tone controls are there to be used.
You can't enhance and/or reproduce what is not there.
I don't think anyone said that you can . :)

However., a program source that does have some frequencies as low as 70 HZ, that band can be augmented to give a better appearance of bass
It's doing whatever sounds good, better to you. :)

Recorded music often some what artificial sounding to to begin with and EQed at the whim of a recording engineer.

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by AsOriginallyRecorded » 22 Sep 2019 00:39

Simply put, equalizers and tone controls are not really a good answer to inadequate equipment, such as larger speakers with larger bass drivers, but can, for the short time, give the sonic allusion that it isn't a problem. However, as many have noted, the production values and output of some pieces of music really have little bass or too much treble, and can benefit (on an album by album basis) from some adjustment of the parameters through use of components and circuits like equalizers and loudness switches. If these are needed all the time....you likely need some new speakers or a better cartridge with better preferred characteristics. Band-Aids should only be short term! :lol:

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Re: Signal processing - equalizers/tone controls

Post by NOYB » 22 Sep 2019 01:01

Few can afford custom designed room and custom designed matching speakers combination. Electronics can sufficiently compensate for this in most cases. The better the room acoustics and speakers that match it well, the less compensation is needed.