Stylus gets stuck in the groove

name that tune
Virta
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Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 06 Jan 2015 13:06

I was listening to Billy Joel's The Nylon Curtain and noticed this ”problem” with the record. It has been a while since I last time listened to it, so I didn't remember it immediately. The stylus gets stuck in the groove. It is always the same groove.

This has occured since I bought the record in 1983. As it was a private seller (mail order) and the back cover was stamped with ”Not for sale”, I didn't bother to have it replaced.

Now I can remember that years ago I found a solution for it. If I decrease the anti-skating almost to zero, it won't occur. It seems that there is a fault in the record, though it is not visible.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Tinkaroo » 06 Jan 2015 13:30

Sometimes there is a tiny bit of muck in the groove, and cleaning with some fluid and a brush or in some cases a wooden toothpick if it is something stuck on the record can help.

I've also found that increasing the tracking force slightly, say from 1.25 to 1.5 might also help.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by philbrown » 06 Jan 2015 18:19

It might help to know the matrix number. If it's a recut you might have an overcut that will never track. Plants sometimes don't QC recuts as closely as original lacquers.
If the number is past the letter F this might be the case.
Phil Brown

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 07 Jan 2015 07:47

I found the following:

STERLING
A
01-85959-4Å-1
NL
AL 38200

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by philbrown » 07 Jan 2015 15:19

Virta wrote:I found the following:

STERLING
A
01-85959-4Å-1
NL
AL 38200
Is this a US pressing? The prefix should be PAL or PBL for a US pressing.
Phil Brown

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 07 Jan 2015 15:31

No, it is Holland. I guess the "NL" refers to it.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 07 Jan 2015 16:15

By listening to the record I located the fault approximately and by using a magnifying glass I found the fault.

I was skeptic that it would be possible to take a photo of it with a normal camera but it was possible. The two grooves clearly touch each other. So when anti-skating is on the stylus will go back to the same groove.

http://uppaa.fi/images/2015/01/07/Nylon200cce.jpg

What has made this fault? And shouldn't there be more faulty records?

Thanks, Phil, for your interest. It couraged me to study the record more closely.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by jhg540 » 07 Jan 2015 16:29

Wow. Weird! I love this forum, by the way, for exactly this.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by philbrown » 07 Jan 2015 20:39

Virta wrote:By listening to the record I located the fault approximately and by using a magnifying glass I found the fault.
I was skeptic that it would be possible to take a photo of it with a normal camera but it was possible. The two grooves clearly touch each other. So when anti-skating is on the stylus will go back to the same groove.
http://uppaa.fi/images/2015/01/07/Nylon200cce.jpg
What has made this fault? And shouldn't there be more faulty records?
Thanks, Phil, for your interest. It couraged me to study the record more closely.
Well, I admire your persistence.
You have managed to take a picture of a classical low frequency overcut. Grooves ARE allowed to touch each other and as well as the overcut there is a good example in the middle top where the grooves just touch. This is called a kiss and is OK.
The overcut is not. If I saw the low frequency on this disc I would have looked it over very carefully for just such an overcut. Actually, I would have modified the variable pitch to allow for the low frequency in the program or lowered the level.
The master should not have been sent and plant QC should have caught it. The record is obviously defective. I'd call the record company, get to the production department and raise holy hell, offering the photo as my evidence.
I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.
The "Sterling" stamp is a bit confusing. It means that Sterling sound in New York cut the lacquers. Normally we don't ship lacquers overseas. I only did it twice. But Billy Joel may have the clout to demand it. And I'm very surprised that the disc escaped Sterling with the defect. They are one of the finest mastering houses in the world and have been for decades.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
Phil Brown

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 08 Jan 2015 08:54

Maybe ”touch” was not the right word. The gooves seem to merge which causes the problem to the stylus. At the intersection there are two grooves for the stylus to go, and the force affecting the stylus determines which way to go, I think. A larger magnification, however, would be needed to find out what the case really is.

It is always difficult to deal with international companies, and especially to find contact information. I found this page:

http://hub.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.php

where I left a brief description on the matter and the link to the image, and asked an email address of a person with whom I can proceed. Let's see what happens, but I guess there will be no reply.

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by philbrown » 08 Jan 2015 14:50

Virta wrote:Maybe ”touch” was not the right word. The gooves seem to merge which causes the problem to the stylus. At the intersection there are two grooves for the stylus to go, and the force affecting the stylus determines which way to go, I think. A larger magnification, however, would be needed to find out what the case really is.
It is always difficult to deal with international companies, and especially to find contact information. I found this page:
http://hub.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.php
where I left a brief description on the matter and the link to the image, and asked an email address of a person with whom I can proceed. Let's see what happens, but I guess there will be no reply.
They don't seem to touch, It's an overcut, plain and simple.
Tell 'em a mastering engineer who used to work for CBS told you so.
And you can cc me on the email. I'll be happy to join in.
Phil Brown

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 08 Jan 2015 17:55

philbrown wrote:They don't seem to touch, It's an overcut, plain and simple.
Tell 'em a mastering engineer who used to work for CBS told you so.
And you can cc me on the email. I'll be happy to join in.
Phil Brown
Ok, now I got it. I wasn't sure about the terminology. I will cc you, if they contact me. Can you send your email address in a pm to me in case it is needed?

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by fscl » 16 Jan 2015 18:51

Virta wrote:By listening to the record I located the fault approximately and by using a magnifying glass I found the fault.

I was skeptic that it would be possible to take a photo of it with a normal camera but it was possible. The two grooves clearly touch each other. So when anti-skating is on the stylus will go back to the same groove.

http://uppaa.fi/images/2015/01/07/Nylon200cce.jpg

What has made this fault? And shouldn't there be more faulty records?

Thanks, Phil, for your interest. It couraged me to study the record more closely.
Great picture, Virta....... =D> =D>

Thanks for providing this, enabling Dr. Phil (Brown) to diagnose..... :) =D> =D>

Just curious, there's another close encounter @ 9:30 from the arrow...... :-k just a "touch" and not an overcut..... :-k

Is there any recourse for an LP bought in 1983..... :shock:

Fred

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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by philbrown » 16 Jan 2015 21:37

fscl wrote:
Virta wrote:By listening to the record I located the fault approximately and by using a magnifying glass I found the fault.

I was skeptic that it would be possible to take a photo of it with a normal camera but it was possible. The two grooves clearly touch each other. So when anti-skating is on the stylus will go back to the same groove.

http://uppaa.fi/images/2015/01/07/Nylon200cce.jpg

What has made this fault? And shouldn't there be more faulty records?

Thanks, Phil, for your interest. It couraged me to study the record more closely.
Great picture, Virta....... =D> =D>

Thanks for providing this, enabling Dr. Phil (Brown) to diagnose..... :) =D> =D>

Just curious, there's another close encounter @ 9:30 from the arrow...... :-k just a "touch" and not an overcut..... :-k

Is there any recourse for an LP bought in 1983..... :shock:

Fred
It's called a kiss and it's OK. The stylus actually rides about 1/3 to 1/2 in the groove so a little touch is fine.
Phil Brown

Virta
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Re: Stylus gets stuck in the groove

Post by Virta » 17 Jan 2015 09:21

I haven't got any reply from them (Sony Music). I was right: this issue doesn't interest them.

This all I can do about it. It is impossible to me to do anything more from another continent.

There is this stamper number: 01-85959-4Å-1. The letter after ”4” for seems to be so called Swedish O, having a little circle above A. Why would they use such a letter which doesn't even belong to the English alphabet? Don't they usually start with ”A”, then ”B” etc?

http://uppaa.fi/images/2015/01/17/nylon5a945a.jpg

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