How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

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Mathijs2000
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How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 18 Dec 2019 16:20

Hi Guys,

For some time I've had certain sound problems with records. The sounds at the end of the record sounded wasn't as good as it started. It didn't matter if it was an old or new record. After searching around the interent I found it had something to do with sibilance in the inner groove.

Can anybody tell me how to solve this (problem)? Is it just part of the deal with vinyl?

Thanks

Pauw
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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Pauw » 18 Dec 2019 17:14

With all records there is a tendency distortion and maybe sibilance increase as you go from outside to inside of a record as the reproduction of sound from a circular disk involves several compromises. However, it is possible to minimise the distortion by use of good alignment of the cartridge within the headshell. To do this you will need an alignment protractor which can be downloaded from this site. :D

Mathijs2000
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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 18 Dec 2019 17:15

Pauw wrote:
18 Dec 2019 17:14
With all records there is a tendency distortion and maybe sibilance increase as you go from outside to inside of a record as the reproduction of sound from a circular disk involves several compromises. However, it is possible to minimise the distortion by use of good alignment of the cartridge within the headshell. To do this you will need an alignment protractor which can be downloaded from this site. :D
Thanks going to have a look at it!

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Tombo62 » 18 Dec 2019 17:54

This is sometimes referred to as "inner groove distortion" which is often most audible in the higher frequencies. As the groove gets smaller in diameter more information is packed into a shorter distance. The inches per second (ips) at the inner grooves is less than half the ips at the outer groove. To accurately reproduce a 10K signal the stylus has to vibrate ten thousand times per second. When this amount of information is packed into a shorter distance, it becomes more difficult for the stylus to track. Most modern systems are able to track the inner grooves without notable distortion. Your problem is most likely due to your cartridge-stylus, cartridge alignment, or to wear on your records. If this happens only on older used records than it's due to groove damage from mis-tracking that occurred in the past. If on newer or little played records in very good condition, then it's due to your stylus or cartridge alignment. A lower cost conical stylus will not track the higher frequencies as well as would an elliptical or line contact would. Also, cartridge misalignment could cause problems with mis-tracking as could a low tracking force. A worn, chipped or damaged stylus could also be the problem.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 18 Dec 2019 21:36

Some turntables have too strong AS mechanism, so if you will set AS the same as VTF, it will be too much and will make problems at the end of records. Also check if cartridge is perfectly aligned. The best way to do this 100% correct is to buy cartridge alignment tool from Analogis, which will cost you around 10 eur and will stay with you for some decades.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by lenjack » 18 Dec 2019 22:29

I think mayn have too WEAK AS mechanism, if you set as instructed.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 18 Dec 2019 22:47

Tombo62 wrote:
18 Dec 2019 17:54
This is sometimes referred to as "inner groove distortion" which is often most audible in the higher frequencies. As the groove gets smaller in diameter more information is packed into a shorter distance. The inches per second (ips) at the inner grooves is less than half the ips at the outer groove. To accurately reproduce a 10K signal the stylus has to vibrate ten thousand times per second. When this amount of information is packed into a shorter distance, it becomes more difficult for the stylus to track. Most modern systems are able to track the inner grooves without notable distortion. Your problem is most likely due to your cartridge-stylus, cartridge alignment, or to wear on your records. If this happens only on older used records than it's due to groove damage from mis-tracking that occurred in the past. If on newer or little played records in very good condition, then it's due to your stylus or cartridge alignment. A lower cost conical stylus will not track the higher frequencies as well as would an elliptical or line contact would. Also, cartridge misalignment could cause problems with mis-tracking as could a low tracking force. A worn, chipped or damaged stylus could also be the problem.
I think it's the cartridge alignment. The stylus that I have is just two months old. I use it on my Technics SLD-303.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 18 Dec 2019 22:48

lenjack wrote:
18 Dec 2019 22:29
I think mayn have too WEAK AS mechanism, if you set as instructed.
I have an automatic turntable (Technics SLD-303). Does this have a AS mechanism?

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Tombo62 » 19 Dec 2019 00:16

Hi Mathijs, I see that you had another thread in September about this same issue titled: Re: what free cartridge Alignment Protractors to use on Vinylengine?, and received advice on downloading protractors and setting anti-skate. And now, you are apparently still having the same problem. Complete cartridge alignment instructions is a rather detailed subject, which you should research if you wish to prefect your skills. However, the simplest advice would be to carefully follow the instructions in the SLD-303 owners manual. Perhaps, you can download a copy, if you don't have one already. If you have already done this and properly followed the instructions, then it is probably not being caused by an alignment issue. You should be able to perfectly track the inner grooves with zero anti-skate if the tracking force is set to the upper end of the cartridge manufactures specs. Some high end tonearms don't even have anti-skate. The only way that anti-skate would cause this problem, is if it were somehow way to high. Your stylus is only two months old, so did this problem just start two months ago, or did you change your stylus because of the inter groove distortion, or did you just start playing records two months ago? When did you first notice the distortion, were there any changes in your system occurring at this time? The problem may be with the stylus, if everything is set up correctly and the tonearm is moving freely.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by lenjack » 19 Dec 2019 03:43

lenjack wrote:
18 Dec 2019 22:29
I think mayn have too WEAK AS mechanism, if you set as instructed.
I should have edited. I meant that many have too WEAK AS mechanism.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by scho2684 » 19 Dec 2019 06:20

I doubt it has anything to do with Anti Skating...
Assuming your stylus is okay: check for play on the arm bearings, especially when the arm is on the inner side...
The slightest play will cause distortion...

This is a old table with a long life behind...

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 19 Dec 2019 07:54

scho2684 wrote:
19 Dec 2019 06:20
I doubt it has anything to do with Anti Skating...
Assuming your stylus is okay: check for play on the arm bearings, especially when the arm is on the inner side...
The slightest play will cause distortion...

This is a old table with a long life behind...
No it's not the anti-skating. I set the counterweight and the anti-skating to 1.75 gram (according to the manual). I tried to change the anti-skating but that did not help. Going to try the alignment today. I hope that will help. I'll let you know!

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 19 Dec 2019 08:41

Tombo62 wrote:
19 Dec 2019 00:16
Hi Mathijs, I see that you had another thread in September about this same issue titled: Re: what free cartridge Alignment Protractors to use on Vinylengine?, and received advice on downloading protractors and setting anti-skate. And now, you are apparently still having the same problem. Complete cartridge alignment instructions is a rather detailed subject, which you should research if you wish to prefect your skills. However, the simplest advice would be to carefully follow the instructions in the SLD-303 owners manual. Perhaps, you can download a copy, if you don't have one already. If you have already done this and properly followed the instructions, then it is probably not being caused by an alignment issue. You should be able to perfectly track the inner grooves with zero anti-skate if the tracking force is set to the upper end of the cartridge manufactures specs. Some high end tonearms don't even have anti-skate. The only way that anti-skate would cause this problem, is if it were somehow way to high. Your stylus is only two months old, so did this problem just start two months ago, or did you change your stylus because of the inter groove distortion, or did you just start playing records two months ago? When did you first notice the distortion, were there any changes in your system occurring at this time? The problem may be with the stylus, if everything is set up correctly and the tonearm is moving freely.

The other question about some advice on protracting was a couple of days ago. With this current question I'm looking for maybe some other solutions. Today I'll try the cartridge alignment. I will use a Stevenson protractor. Unfortunately the manual doesn't say anything about the cartridge alignment. I started playing records since two months. The TT I got was from a friend of mine. I immidiatly bought a new stylus.

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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Pauw » 19 Dec 2019 09:02

I have a Technics SL D 303 and one thing is very clear...using the Technics alignment procedure is very important to getting a good sound especially 52mm from stylus to headshell washer !

Mathijs2000
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Re: How to solve 'end of side' distortion and sibilance?

Post by Mathijs2000 » 19 Dec 2019 10:10

Pauw wrote:
19 Dec 2019 09:02
I have a Technics SL D 303 and one thing is very clear...using the Technics alignment procedure is very important to getting a good sound especially 52mm from stylus to headshell washer !
I dont have a gauge for this. What's the best way to get the 52mm right?

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