3 days man, 3 days

name that tune
VinyldechezPierre
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3 days man, 3 days

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 29 Oct 2019 17:20

So, yes, I'm a Woodstock nut and in the process of listening to the 38 CD set of that amazing event.
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Woodstock - Back To The Garden: The Definitive 50th Anniversary Archive

And, no, I was not there. I was only 11yo at the time and, for some reason, my parents did not think it wise to give me a plane ticket to go to Max's farm from France. [-X
:lol:

I just got into CD 3 of day 2 and I'm finding it wonderful so far but, to be honest, this set is probably not for everyone as it may mean a lot of music by people you've never heard of and may not enjoy at all. To me though, mostly musicians I grew up with. And, however weird this may sound, I also enjoy the stage announcements.

In part because it gives you a good sense of how things were going there and also because it was one of the two things my mom found positive about the whole thing when I managed to drag her to a theater to watch the movie...

So, anyway, I'm now left with two questions. The first being: Is this all the music? Or will there be more for the 60th anniversary? Doubt I'll be around then.

Then, last but not least, when is the movie version of this set coming out?

Bob Dillon
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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Bob Dillon » 29 Oct 2019 17:46

You want the movie version of the set.

I would doubt that they were running the 16 mm film cameras to the extent that it was filmed much as the audio was recorded. Film cameras weren't designed for that kind of round the clock use. I'd bet some acts were filmed selectively, but the big acts like Hendrix got the whole enchilada.

VinyldechezPierre
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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 29 Oct 2019 18:18

Bob Dillon wrote:
29 Oct 2019 17:46
You want the movie version of the set.
YES !

And, yes, I know I'm kinda nuts. :lol:

I understand what you are saying but, if you've seen the original movie, they had plenty of cameras to film the crowd and the surrounding events. Even spent time on the porta-potties... So that I very much doubt they didn't have cameras pointed at the stage during the whole time.

I'm sure the footage is there. Just not as easy to put such a long movie together as this CD set. I'll just keep hoping.

Do you remember the memorial concert for Freddy Mercury? My wife and I taped the whole thing anf there were so many incredible moments that never made it to the super short DVD version... :x

That's another concert I hope will eventually be released in its entirety.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Bob Dillon » 29 Oct 2019 18:51

Roger Ebert's review of the original film claims they exposed 120 miles of film on 16 cameras at Woodstock '69

A chart I found says 800 feet of film is roughly an hour of footage at 18 fps. 120 miles of film is 633600 feet, which is 792 hours of footage, which is 264 hours per day, which is an average 16.5 hours per day per camera. Of course several cameras were deployed on stage shooting the same acts from different angles when music was actually going. I don't know how many hours of music was going each day, obviously there needed to be downtime at least to break down and set up each acts gear.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by bernard1 » 29 Oct 2019 21:35

Bob Dillon wrote:
29 Oct 2019 18:51
Roger Ebert's review of the original film claims they exposed 120 miles of film on 16 cameras at Woodstock '69

A chart I found says 800 feet of film is roughly an hour of footage at 18 fps. 120 miles of film is 633600 feet, which is 792 hours of footage, which is 264 hours per day, which is an average 16.5 hours per day per camera. Of course several cameras were deployed on stage shooting the same acts from different angles when music was actually going. I don't know how many hours of music was going each day, obviously there needed to be downtime at least to break down and set up each acts gear.
Movie cameras run at 24 fps. 25 fps for TV eventually.
According to imdb the film was shot in 16 mm : https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066580/technical
French Wikipedia article says 200 km film was shot. That is about 124 miles.
120 miles of films (633600 feet) in 16 mm make 293 hours and 20 minutes. https://www.digitalrebellion.com/webapps/filmcalc
That is less than the 792 hours you calculate but still a good lenght for re-editing.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Bob Dillon » 29 Oct 2019 23:14

^ You jogged my memory, yes, 24 fps is sound speed for optical film soundtracks. 18 fps was more or less the speed used in silent film days. Of course, all the film footage at Woodstock would have been silent anyway, until synched with the magnetically tape recorded audio.

I'm not refuting any of your points, I just dunno, I'm not schooled in the technical aspects of film production.

VinyldechezPierre
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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 30 Oct 2019 07:04

Thanks guys for all the calculating. Very interesting. With the shorter hours, we still get 100 hrs per day or just about. Seems to me that would be enough for my dream.

Maybe they should ask for the help of Ken Burns, the king of super long documentaries...

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by JoeE SP9 » 06 Nov 2019 20:05

bernard1 wrote:
29 Oct 2019 21:35

Movie cameras run at 24 fps. 25 fps for TV eventually.
According to imdb the film was shot in 16 mm : https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066580/technical
French Wikipedia article says 200 km film was shot. That is about 124 miles.
120 miles of films (633600 feet) in 16 mm make 293 hours and 20 minutes. https://www.digitalrebellion.com/webapps/filmcalc
That is less than the 792 hours you calculate but still a good lenght for re-editing.
25FPS is strictly for Europe. It's half the (50Hz) line frequency and works well with an interlaced picture. The line frequency in he US is 60Hz. No snarky remarks about the US line frequency please. We use the AC transmission frequency as originally designed by Nikola Tesla. You know, the man who invented AC electricity, the generators and synchronous motors. Last I heard the original generators Westinghouse payed for are still in operating condition.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Hanuman » 09 Nov 2019 04:48

JoeE SP9 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 20:05
You know, the man who invented AC electricity, the generators and synchronous motors.
Invented? Wasn't Westinghouse picking up on technology already implemented and/or under testing in Europe?

Anyway 25fps is moot to the Woodstock discussion. It wasn't shot in Europe, Australia or the UK. It'll all have been shot to a base rate of 24fps.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Hanuman » 09 Nov 2019 05:00

JoeE SP9 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 20:05
25FPS is strictly for Europe.
And:

UK
Australia
New Zealand
South East Asia (apart from The Phillipines & Myanmar)
China
Russia
Argentina
South Africa (most of Africa in fact)
Egypt
Saudi Arabia
Israel
(most of the Middle East)

In fact, the majority of TV viewers worldwide, by a long way.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by JoeE SP9 » 09 Nov 2019 05:35

Perhaps I should have been more specific and said Pal and SECAM. In any case, many Americans when visiting foreign countries notice flicker in the TV picture of countries that use 50Hz electricity.

Regardless, over "here" we use the electrical system as the inventor invented. I think the 200/220VAC @ 50Hz system was a lot of the NIH (not invented here) attitude for line frequency and voltage along with a certain amount of sour grapes.

Hanuman: Everything below is considered to be fact. If you don't believe check for yourself.
The AC transmission system for electricity was invented and designed solely by Nikola Tesla. George Westinghouse was the money behind actually making the first generators. The worlds first commercial AC generating plant still exists in Niagara Falls, New York. It could be brought on line in a week or two. The only competitor to Tesla's system was Thomas Edison's DC system.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by H. callahan » 09 Nov 2019 07:10

18fps rather was for amateurs, trying to save material. Pros, or "if you did mean it" shot at 24fps or 25fps for TV (in europe at least). 24fps/25fps gives better image quality than 18fps (and better sound quality during projection).
Furthermore a (16mm) movie camera does not need to be synced to a tape recorder to sync image and sound, they also can be "quartzed". This means the motor of a movie camera is controlled by a quartz making it run very steady - while the motor of the tape recorder also is quartz-controlled and therefore runs very steady. In the end you can join sound and image assuming that both will be sync (as long as you start image and sound simulatneously in playback) without needing a sync-conncetion between camera and tape recorder during shooting/recording.

Because of that professional (16mm) movie cameras do have quartz-sync at 25fps i think, maybe its also at 24fps sometimes - but this kind of quartz-sync only is at 24 or 25 fps, meaning you cannot run the camera at 18fps quartzed.
And as the organisators of Woodstock were investing a lot of money and were aware of loosing a lot of money, the probably "did mean it" with the shooting and ran the cameras at 24 or 25fps to at least make some money with the movie.
...

Apart from that there also are other restrictions with analog film. A standart 16mm camera only can take up 100 feet, which gives a little less than 3 minutes at 24/25fps. Pro cameras have an attachable magazine taking up 400 feet, giving little less than 12 minutes at 24/25 fps. But those are big and heavy and i´ve seen some running around with a 100feet-Bolex, hand cranked and therefore non-sync, in some Woodstock-documentary.

Another problem is that film is light-sensitive and you have to load the film into the camera. Unless you do that in complete darkness, some material is lost during loading and unloading - at the beginning and the end of the film. This also does depend on what speed the film has and how bright or dark it is where you load/unload the film and how good you are at threading the film into the camera - so the other question was whether the 120miles of footage is all the footage including overexposed material, or just the good footage.

Also a can of 400 feet 16mm film is about 7inches in diameter and about 1inch in thickness.To just shoot an hour you need about 5 of these, reloading every 12 minutes, so you can imagine what a demand of film there is to shoot 24/7. Whether it was possible to keep up supply of film in that clutter may be questionable also. On the stage there were several cameras and i guess they timed, so at least one camera was running while the others were reloading.
But in one documentary they said that so much weed was smoked at/around the stage that everybody got high - so it was shooting under "difficult conditions" i guess... which might have led to some misoperation/mistiming... :wink: .

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Hanuman » 09 Nov 2019 07:14

JoeE SP9 wrote:
09 Nov 2019 05:35
Perhaps I should have been more specific and said Pal and SECAM.
That still covers all of the countries and regions in my list.
In any case, many Americans when visiting foreign countries notice flicker in the TV picture of countries that use 50Hz electricity.
Non-Americans, too. I used to see it clearly after doing a stretch of NTSC post production.
Hanuman: Everything below is considered to be fact. If you don't believe check for yourself.
The AC transmission system for electricity was invented and designed solely by Nikola Tesla. George Westinghouse was the money behind actually making the first generators. The worlds first commercial AC generating plant still exists in Niagara Falls, New York. It could be brought on line in a week or two. The only competitor to Tesla's system was Thomas Edison's DC system.
I don’t dispute any of that but it reads a bit myopic and US-centric. There’re numerous instances of working AC systems in places like England, Italy and Germany in the nineteenth century. Faraday himself established the principle of AC generation in the first place.

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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by Othne3l7 » 09 Nov 2019 16:27

Woodstock?

VinyldechezPierre
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Re: 3 days man, 3 days

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 09 Nov 2019 16:49

H. callahan wrote:
09 Nov 2019 07:10
...Furthermore a (16mm) movie camera does not need to be synced to a tape recorder to sync image and sound, they also can be "quartzed". This means the motor of a movie camera is controlled by a quartz making it run very steady - while the motor of the tape recorder also is quartz-controlled and therefore runs very steady. In the end you can join sound and image assuming that both will be sync (as long as you start image and sound simula...

But in one documentary they said that so much weed was smoked at/around the stage that everybody got high - so it was shooting under "difficult conditions" i guess... which might have led to some misoperation/mistiming... :wink: .
Some interesting technical aspects to consider in your post. Several of which I had thought and wondered about myself.

The loading/unloading of the cameras is one simply because I was a photographer once upon a time and I know that 16mm film was not in the form of "cassettes" (cans? not sure what the appropriate term is) like photo film.

Now, I happen to think that both the movie and the album(s) were planned from the start as a potential big chunk of the financial equation... Not all so-called hippies were ignorant of money-making opportunities. :D

Once that is said, it is obvious I think loading/unloading "stations" must have been planned here and there around the farm and, of course, around the stage. Probably, as you infer, there were some fook-ups due to the insanity of the 3 days, the smoking of weed and the general everyday kind of messing up that happens in all and every project.

Being of a generous nature, I will agree to a 25% rate of fook-ups. Considering the last calculation of about 100 hours of film a day, that would still leave us with 75 hours of film a day. No too bad. :lol:

If some band's performance is not there on film in its intirety, it's easy enough to do some cuts to the crowd that would be barely noticed.

So, YES, still hoping for the movie version of this CD ciollection.

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