Playing beat-up records

name that tune
Belmont
member
member
Posts: 49
Joined: 04 Jul 2016 20:08

Playing beat-up records

Post by Belmont » 09 Jul 2019 17:56

Like most anyone with a record collection, I’ve got a fair number of records that are less-than-perfect, even after cleaning. The usual dollar-bin finds, 45’s, noisy pressings, my parents’ records that definitely saw a lot of action on various portables and Crosley’s, etc. that don’t sound too hot on my main system. It would be a shame to just bin them, so I’d like to figure out a more forgiving second setup for them.

My main turntable is a Pioneer PLL1000 with a new Audio Technica ATVM95E cartridge, which sounds absolutely fantastic on good LP’s, and rather damning on worn ones. I’ve also got a Dual 1009 and a Garrard SL95, running a Pickering XV15 and ADC QLM34 respectively. These seem like better contenders for playing beater records, at least aesthetically. I haven’t used either of them much because they’re quite old, but the Pickering seems like a much nicer cartridge for old records than the ADC, and it’s kind of a tossup between the Dual and Garrard as to which is the better turntable. The little brush on the Pickering would certainly come in handy, seeing as it’s probably been decades since some of these were last spun.

As far as I can tell, I have several options:

>Buy a new conical cartridge, like the AT3600 or the ATVM95C, and mount it on a spare headshell
>Replace the stylus on the Pickering, and either keep it on the Dual, or mount it on the Garrard or Pioneer.
>Buy a more advanced profile stylus for the Pioneer, like a hyper-elliptical, that will ride beneath the wear caused by all the conicals and ellipticals over the years.

danmanch
senior member
senior member
Posts: 293
Joined: 20 Jul 2008 01:00
Location: New Hampshire USA

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by danmanch » 09 Jul 2019 19:10

I would personally just opt for the AT3600 mounted on a spare headshell. I have tried sharper profile diamonds exactly for these situation's and had poor results, even worse playback, and think it's a waste. The conical is the way to go for beaters. Or really step it up and get a Denon DL 103, made even my crappiest records sound listenable again. I don't know how Denon does it but they literally make pops and crackle disappear.

Belmont
member
member
Posts: 49
Joined: 04 Jul 2016 20:08

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Belmont » 09 Jul 2019 22:44

That’s about what I figured! DL103’s out of the budget, but you’ve certainly intrigued me.

vinyl master
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 19457
Joined: 01 Nov 2013 05:27

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by vinyl master » 10 Jul 2019 05:58


Peter Galbavy
senior member
senior member
Posts: 624
Joined: 24 Jan 2014 16:53

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Peter Galbavy » 10 Jul 2019 14:01

I depends, for me, on what "beaten up" means. In the case of groove wear by older conical stylus/ii I like using a nice sharp FG (OM40) or Shibata-type stylus to get in under the top of the groove. Seems to help, especially with some older LPs.

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 541
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 10 Jul 2019 14:33

Since my pre-amp allows the connecting of 2 TTs, I have my main one, a Revox, for my good records and a second one, a NEC (not a bad TT for cheap) with a cheaper cartridge.

And I have 2 different cartridges for the NEC. One for the not top-shape records and one for the records that just came in, don't look so good, but want to listen to before deciding to clean/wash them or throw them in the trash bin.

Gravitar8
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 334
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 17:07
Contact:

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Gravitar8 » 10 Jul 2019 15:04

Indeed conical is the choice for beat up/surface scratched LP's.
danmanch wrote:
09 Jul 2019 19:10
I would personally just opt for the AT3600 mounted on a spare headshell. I have tried sharper profile diamonds exactly for these situation's and had poor results, even worse playback, and think it's a waste. The conical is the way to go for beaters. Or really step it up and get a Denon DL 103, made even my crappiest records sound listenable again. I don't know how Denon does it but they literally make pops and crackle disappear.

johnnywalker
senior member
senior member
Posts: 965
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 13:10
Location: Florida

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by johnnywalker » 10 Jul 2019 15:12

Here's a recent thread that might be of interest:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 9&t=112249

Belmont
member
member
Posts: 49
Joined: 04 Jul 2016 20:08

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Belmont » 10 Jul 2019 22:45

VinyldechezPierre wrote:
10 Jul 2019 14:33
Since my pre-amp allows the connecting of 2 TTs, I have my main one, a Revox, for my good records and a second one, a NEC (not a bad TT for cheap) with a cheaper cartridge.

And I have 2 different cartridges for the NEC. One for the not top-shape records and one for the records that just came in, don't look so good, but want to listen to before deciding to clean/wash them or throw them in the trash bin.
That's what I plan to do as well. I plan to keep the Pioneer for my nice records, and either use the Garrard SL95 or the Dual 1009 for beater use. They're both 60s-era idler-drive stackers, so it's apples vs. different colored apples. I restored the Garrard SL95 a few months ago, and it has a full-sized platter, a nicer-looking tonearm with some semblance of anti-skate, and I have all the goodies for it (45 spindle, stacker spindle, cover, manual, etc.). The 1009, on the other hand, has much nicer build quality than the Garrard, and seems to sound a lot better in spite of the more primitive arm. However, it has a few problems with the motor and idler assembly that I've yet to work out. It also doesn't seem to like warped records as much, probably because of the short tonearm.

Nadguy
junior member
junior member
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 21:21
Location: Farmington Hills MI

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Nadguy » 10 Jul 2019 23:18

This solution is not for everybody but I play my beat up records on a Newcomb school record player. Audiotronics and Califones will do too. Granted the cartridge is ceramic and the tone arm weight is around 8 gm...it is not even hi fidelity(its mono too) but it is listenable and beat up records imperfections are less noticeable. I play comedy records on the Newcomb as well as an occasional 78rpm also. I have rescued many an LP by playing them on the Newcomb. A school record player can be had for very little money too.

vinyl master
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 19457
Joined: 01 Nov 2013 05:27

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by vinyl master » 11 Jul 2019 16:50

Of course, if they're REALLY beat-up (and this is just for fun), you could play them on something like this...It's not the best I freely admit, but it's my first one, so it's sentimental...What can I say??? 8-[

27714

I still have most of the records I played on it as a kid and they weren't in the best shape when I got them, but they were my first 45's...I have better machines now, but every so often, it's nice to throw a few rough-looking singles on a stacker and have a retro party! :D

Other than that, you could still get a conical stylus for the 1009 (My 1009SK and 1009F are very similar to the 1019), which serves multiple purposes with various records of different speeds...The 10xx series are all-around winners, too, and beloved here on VE! 8) =D>

We even have our own thread going on these Duals!

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... hp?t=91723

Belmont
member
member
Posts: 49
Joined: 04 Jul 2016 20:08

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Belmont » 11 Jul 2019 21:26

So it seems like the more primitive Dual trounces the fancier Garrard?

vinyl master
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 19457
Joined: 01 Nov 2013 05:27

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by vinyl master » 12 Jul 2019 00:17

Belmont wrote:
11 Jul 2019 21:26
So it seems like the more primitive Dual trounces the fancier Garrard?
Although some may disagree with me (and that's O.K.!), I can say honestly that I've bought five Duals over the last several years (1009F, 1009SK, 1019, 1219, 1226) and only one Garrard (74M)...What does THAT tell you? :-k

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 541
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 12 Jul 2019 20:16

Belmont wrote:
10 Jul 2019 22:45
VinyldechezPierre wrote:
10 Jul 2019 14:33
Since my pre-amp allows the connecting of 2 TTs, I have my main one, a Revox, for my good records and a second one, a NEC (not a bad TT for cheap) with a cheaper cartridge.

And I have 2 different cartridges for the NEC. One for the not top-shape records and one for the records that just came in, don't look so good, but want to listen to before deciding to clean/wash them or throw them in the trash bin.
That's what I plan to do as well. I plan to keep the Pioneer for my nice records, and either use the Garrard SL95 or the Dual 1009 for beater use. They're both 60s-era idler-drive stackers, so it's apples vs. different colored apples. I restored the Garrard SL95 a few months ago, and it has a full-sized platter, a nicer-looking tonearm with some semblance of anti-skate, and I have all the goodies for it (45 spindle, stacker spindle, cover, manual, etc.). The 1009, on the other hand, has much nicer build quality than the Garrard, and seems to sound a lot better in spite of the more primitive arm. However, it has a few problems with the motor and idler assembly that I've yet to work out. It also doesn't seem to like warped records as much, probably because of the short tonearm.
I wonder if your warped record problem is not related to the TT being a stacker. Does it happen with both stackers?

My own Dual stacker's tonearm moves up as the records come down and maybe that mechanism doesn't agree with warped records. Just a thought.

Also, do you know that warped records can be fixed? Or flattened, if you prefer.

Gravitar8
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 334
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 17:07
Contact:

Re: Playing beat-up records

Post by Gravitar8 » 15 Jul 2019 12:04

I dont have a large sample size or ownership history to compare BUT in my limited experience with both brands I found that- used Duals seem to be less prone to being 'set up' improperly or 'gummed up mechanisms' compared to the used Garrards. In other words, the used Garrards take more work and time to bring back to proper playing condition. BUT when they are brought back to my ears (and tastes) the Garrards sound at least as good as the Duals if not a tad 'better' BUT then again I am a fan of idler tt's whereas every Dual I've owned were belt drive.
quote="vinyl master" post_id=987944 time=1562887044 user_id=376655]
Belmont wrote:
11 Jul 2019 21:26
So it seems like the more primitive Dual trounces the fancier Garrard?
Although some may disagree with me (and that's O.K.!), I can say honestly that I've bought five Duals over the last several years (1009F, 1009SK, 1019, 1219, 1226) and only one Garrard (74M)...What does THAT tell you? :-k
[/quote]

Post Reply