Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

name that tune
hobie1dog
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 330
Joined: 01 Oct 2008 20:41
Location: Cornelius, NC

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by hobie1dog » 18 Jan 2019 02:05

Zero interest in the format, it's just about the love of music.

Audiodude
member
member
Posts: 138
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 20:26

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by Audiodude » 18 Jan 2019 03:29

Yup, personally vinyl is huge pain in the butt. Much easier to just point and click, more music, more faster. Here's an example of my problem, I was just listening to Quadrophenia and the track "Cut my hair" I could hear three distinctly different tracks of Pete Townsend vocals, one on the right, left and center. I never heard anything like that on my Mofi Ultradisc CD copy. For me, the format is only a means to an end. My goal is to hear everything the artist put in to their art.

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 565
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 18 Jan 2019 10:01

wrote:
17 Jan 2019 17:08
It relies less on special effects, distortion, etc. Often, the best Jazz album is one where it sounds like they are in your living room. I would not want that with a Led Zeppelin album.

So you are hearing instruments and voices, well recorded to sound as real as possible. It's not that they are recorded "better". It's that they are recorded to sound real, live and intimate. (for the most part).
Can't help but agree with this. So long as we are talking about old style jazz.

The only thing I would add is that "recorded to sound as real as possible" with electric and electronic instruments is very subjective. I spend a lot of time telling new people to the world of music audio to go listen to speakers with only acoustic music. Usually end my little speech with the exemple of Bono (U2 for those who don't know him) who works out a different special effect for each song...

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 565
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 18 Jan 2019 11:22

JoeE SP9 wrote:
17 Jan 2019 21:29
You guys might want to give Jacintha a listen (Jacintha, Here's To Ben, Groove Note GR1001-2). All her recordings are direct to a two track master. No multi-tracking, dubbing or re-dubbing is done. A minimal number of microphones and a simple tube mixer are used and no post processing is done.

I have Here's To Ben on CD but it's also available on vinyl. You could also try the Best Of Groove Note compilation (Groove Note GRV-1036-3). All the selections were recorded direct to two track masters, as are all Groove Note recordings. Their recordings IMO sound a lot like many of the Direct to Disc LP's I have.
I have an XRCD2 version of this album (from FIM) ;that I use everytime someone comes to hear my different speakers. Not sure what the XRCD2 adds since that's the only version I have but it sounds absolutely beautiful.

You ARE in the club with her and the band.

The only people who are not moved by this recording are the ones who only listen to rock music. :cry:

Now, may I suggest another beautiful record of the same type, direct-to-stereo or true-stereo or whatever else you may call it:

Claudia Gomez - Salamandra.

My copy comes from Clarity Recordings and is a Premium Gold Zeonex CD. Once again, not sure what the difference would be between this copy and a regular one, it is the only one I have. But, unlike Jacintha, this record seems to throw people for a loop.

I'll let you listen and decide.

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5055
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by JoeE SP9 » 18 Jan 2019 15:02

I'll give it a shot fairly soon. It is a rather pricey CD. What do you mean by "throw people for a loop"?

BTW: Here's to Ben is a studio recording. However, it's done the classic way with all the musicians in the studio at the same time.

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 565
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 18 Jan 2019 15:50

Oops, sorry, must have erased part of my text...

Throw people for a loop means it sounds weird a first. Not your regular stereo somehow. I think it actually comes from stereo systems in which the speakers are too close together. But who knows? Jacintha is recorded in the same way from what I gather but doesn't have that effect.

The other thing that got forgotten is that I bought both those albums from a stereo shop which also had a couple hundred albums. Specially selected for their audio quality I guess.

dysmike
senior member
senior member
Germany
Posts: 406
Joined: 21 Jul 2018 01:20

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by dysmike » 18 Jan 2019 17:23

How does it sound with cans? (a lot of) Early stereo mixes sound weird to me because they over-emphasized the l/r separation. Later ones do a better job, and it's VERY noticeable listening through headphones.

ChefER
junior member
junior member
Posts: 5
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 06:13

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by ChefER » 18 Jan 2019 17:27

Here's my opinion of classical on cd vs metal on vinyl- which sounds 'better'? My answer is classical sounds better on cd. Metal sounds better on vinyl. For a few reasons. 1. Metal is usually played with only two kinds of instruments- drums (percussion) and guitars (string). And a voice. Yes there's many different forms of guitars and drums, but still it comes down to the basics. Combined with a stereo and speakers, bass and treble played out a woofer and tweeter. Easy, simple, sounds awesome. Classical usually has more than two kinds of instruments. More instruments equals more to comprehend, recording wise, playback wise, and listening wise. 2. Most people fall into some sort of stereotype. Metal fans are typically not classical fans, visa versa, although they do exist. Rare IMO. Also the stereo systems may vary for the metal and classical fan. Classical probably has a higher end system. While metal probably has a mid to low-fi system. Tastes change as age progresses. Life experiences add to everything. There's a sensation that metal sparks a psychological fire of energy and fun that vinyl records do. Classical doesn't on vinyl. Digital is water that puts out the analog fire. Classical is so multi-layered, precise, full ranged, taxing on audio gear that the digital realm can recreate faster with accuracy. Hopefully the speakers can too. High damping factors help as well.
I listen to death metal, grindcore, thrash, bluegrass, jazz, classical, disco, rock, techno, jungle, gabber, hard trance, and ambient. Not so much hip-hop or pop. I still play on a daily basis- cassettes, 8-tracks and records, cds too. I have many of the same music/band/artist on different formats. But it also comes down to the recording, mixing, and distribution. I hate getting a record and it's light and flimsy and played on a worn stylus with a crappy amp and speakers. But a Cannibal Corpse album might sound good on it. Mozart no.

ChefER
junior member
junior member
Posts: 5
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 06:13

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by ChefER » 18 Jan 2019 17:31

Plus it's more fun the play heavy metal records backwards.

ChefER
junior member
junior member
Posts: 5
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 06:13

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by ChefER » 18 Jan 2019 17:33

Plus classical doesn't have the equalizer set with a "V".

ChefER
junior member
junior member
Posts: 5
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 06:13

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by ChefER » 18 Jan 2019 17:41

One more thing... if the artist wanted us to hear how they intended to sound...... then they are more than welcome to come on over to my house and play. I'll supply the beer and food, etc. Otherwise they will only sound as good as the ability of the stereo system/rig/ whatever is used.

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 565
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 18 Jan 2019 20:46

dysmike wrote:
18 Jan 2019 17:23
How does it sound with cans? (a lot of) Early stereo mixes sound weird to me because they over-emphasized the l/r separation. Later ones do a better job, and it's VERY noticeable listening through headphones.
I take it that cans are headphones. It sounds more normal because the l/r separation is more emphasized but, by more normal, I'm thinking of what we are used to hear in most recordings. While in concert, the l/r separation in not quite so emphasized. At least not in small clubs like the ones where I used to work.

Keep in mind though that these two recordings are stereo direct ie recorded with 2 microphones set at a distance from each other basically equal to that between your two ears. The mix is done at the time of recording by placing the different instruments closer of further from the mikes, as well as more to one side or the other, depending on the desired result.

At least, that's how the process is explained on the Claudia Gomez CD. The Jacintha CD does not give any details of the recording process; only of the mastering and manufacturing of the XRCD2 thingy: extended resolution CD2, which I can scan and put in a new thread if anyone is interested.

Anyway, I think it gives a more natural stereo effect. In my mind, close to what you hear when listening to non-amplified music in a smallish room.

In conclusion, headphones over-emphasise the stereo imaging but speakers too close together restrict it a bit too much.

VinyldechezPierre
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 565
Joined: 12 Mar 2016 22:09
Location: France

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by VinyldechezPierre » 18 Jan 2019 20:57

JoeE SP9 wrote:
18 Jan 2019 15:02
BTW: Here's to Ben is a studio recording. However, it's done the classic way with all the musicians in the studio at the same time.
Of course. I meant that I feel like they are right in front of me in a cozy jazz club like some I've known. And, to me, that's a huge compliment to the way it was recorded.

Not to say that I don't enjoy special effects but they get old fast while real good music will last forever.

A kind of thing Hollywood seems to have forgotten. I love me some big explosions that make me fall off my chair but, in the long run, it's the movies with a good story that I will remember. :lol:

dysmike
senior member
senior member
Germany
Posts: 406
Joined: 21 Jul 2018 01:20

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by dysmike » 18 Jan 2019 21:44

VinyldechezPierre wrote:
18 Jan 2019 20:46

I take it that cans are headphones. It sounds more normal because the l/r separation is more emphasized but, by more normal, I'm thinking of what we are used to hear in most recordings. While in concert, the l/r separation in not quite so emphasized. At least not in small clubs like the ones where I used to work.

Keep in mind though that these two recordings are stereo direct ie recorded with 2 microphones set at a distance from each other basically equal to that between your two ears. The mix is done at the time of recording by placing the different instruments closer of further from the mikes, as well as more to one side or the other, depending on the desired result.

At least, that's how the process is explained on the Claudia Gomez CD. The Jacintha CD does not give any details of the recording process; only of the mastering and manufacturing of the XRCD2 thingy: extended resolution CD2, which I can scan and put in a new thread if anyone is interested.

Anyway, I think it gives a more natural stereo effect. In my mind, close to what you hear when listening to non-amplified music in a smallish room.

In conclusion, headphones over-emphasise the stereo imaging but speakers too close together restrict it a bit too much.
Ok, so it's pretty much the opposite of many early stereo recordings. Cool, thanks! Also, the non-amplified makes a huge difference, to be sure. The minute you add mics and monitors, you're going to generally end up mono. Which makes total sense for a 'concert', but...

JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5055
Joined: 23 Feb 2009 19:20
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania

Re: Classical vs rock, heavy metal for vinyl listening...

Post by JoeE SP9 » 18 Jan 2019 23:15

Pierre:
I'm right with you. The Jacintha CD sounds like each soloist gets up from a chair, takes a couple of steps to the mic and then lets loose. A lot of the CTI recordings have that same sort of feel. He recorded them in the living room of his house. Body Talk by George Benson is IMO a good example of a CTI recording.