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CS 515 teardown and cam service

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CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 07 Sep 2017 02:05

With luck this topic will include 28 photos of the teardown and cam service of a modified CS 515. This particular unit has been rewired to switch the platter on separately from tonearm movements. That should not have any bearing on 1) opening the 515 for service, or 2) service of the cam, steuerpimpel, etc. Bear in mind that orientation of the wires in the photos will probably look a bit different from your stock CS 515.

Disassembly is not difficult, but there are a couple potential booby traps when it comes to removal of the cam. There is a 3 mm ball bearing that helps to hold the cam at the neutral location when it is not in operation. It is easy to lose this ball when the cam is removed if you're not watching for it.

Most of the instructions are overlaid as text in the photos themselves.

1) Disassembly to get Inside the CS 515 Turntable.


Front Fascia Removal

Raise the dustcover and then slip it out of the hinges.

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Remove the headshell and counterweight and zero out the tracking weight and anti-skate dial.

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This photo shows how the platter lock is designed. You can usually remove the platter by spreading the wires with a large flat screwdriver while rocking the platter slightly
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2) Removing the Top Cover Segment

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3) Tonearm Rail Orientation and Adjustment (if necessary)

The tonearm rail simply fits over a post on the tonearm assembly with no special fastener. The tonearm rail is slightly bowed downwards normally but can be bent further down or straightened slightly to change the location on the record that the cam is engaged and the tonearm lifts.

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4) Turning over the Cam Chassis to Remove the Cam for Service

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In order to turn the cam chassis over to get working access to the cam, some of the wires may need to be released from clips on the main body of the turntable.

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5) Main Lever Removal and Steuerpimpel Location

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6) Cam Removal and Service

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7) Cleaning and Reassembly

With the cam removed, adopt normal Dual clean-and-lube protocols. Clean the tonearm tracks of old grease with cotton swabs and isopropyl and relubricate with alvania. Put a very thin coat of alvania on the main lever where it engages the steuerpimpel. It is not clear that the cam post is to be lubricated, but a drop of household oil on the post probably won't hurt. Where the cam's ball bearing tracks on the top of the cam should be lubricated with alvania (as illustrated in the photo above).

Care must be taken to get the cam oriented correctly with the ball bearing intact and holding the cam in the neutral position before replacing the C-clip.

The rest of the reassembly is basically the reverse of disassembly. This is a very good time to replace output wires if they are humming or are unbalanced in output.

jdubbie
9/2017
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 07 Sep 2017 02:14

I should add a disclaimer. The procedures I described worked for me to my satisfaction. I don't claim anything more for them than that. I hope they might be helpful to someone, but I can't guarantee they will. I am not to the 515 what Dualcan is to the 1019 (and many other models). I can't guarantee that you won't ruin your turntable trying to follow what I have posted. I don't think you will, if you actually follow my suggestions, otherwise I wouldn't have gone to the expense of labor and time, but I could be wrong.

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby DSJR » 07 Sep 2017 20:03

My experiences with Garrards would tell me to leave the pawls dry on the cam and not put the tiniest drop of oil or grease on them as it seems to cause more issues than it solves...

It's my experience that there should only be minimal friction or drag on the copper coloured friction lever on top of the white delrin pawl underneath it. The end of the friction lever which contacts the platter 'key' when tripping the mechanism MUST be easily able to 'slide' or 'pivot' a small amount back and away from it as the tonearm moves towards the side end and before the lead-out groove engages - please look at the link referred to on the other 515 thread earlier for full explanation how this 'velocity' tripping mechanism actually works. Even Klaus, who horrified me recommending some lube on the equivalent 1229 parts, merely suggested a pin-head amount of wacker damping oil on the 'pivot' to minimise any rattle or false engagement at 78rpm-speed cycling as the cycling is very fast and abrupt at this speed.

I've been there and done it so many times I'm afraid, I tend to be set in my ways with these parts. Adding lubricant usually makes things worse, especially at low tracking weights. Forgive me for going on about it... The Delrin pawl has enough low friction and smooth running as it is...
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 08 Sep 2017 02:20

DSJR wrote:My experiences with Garrards would tell me to leave the pawls dry on the cam and not put the tiniest drop of oil or grease on them as it seems to cause more issues than it solves...


So you have said. I have a LAB 95 I'd like to get the automatics working on. I have made a mental note of your wisdom on this. But I also entertain the possibility that Garrards and Duals are not geese and ganders.

DSJR wrote:It's my experience that there should only be minimal friction or drag on the copper coloured friction lever on top of the white delrin pawl underneath it. The end of the friction lever which contacts the platter 'key' when tripping the mechanism MUST be easily able to 'slide' or 'pivot' a small amount back and away from it as the tonearm moves towards the side end and before the lead-out groove engages - please look at the link referred to on the other 515 thread earlier for full explanation how this 'velocity' tripping mechanism actually works. Even Klaus, who horrified me recommending some lube on the equivalent 1229 parts, merely suggested a pin-head amount of wacker damping oil on the 'pivot' to minimise any rattle or false engagement at 78rpm-speed cycling as the cycling is very fast and abrupt at this speed.

I've been there and done it so many times I'm afraid, I tend to be set in my ways with these parts. Adding lubricant usually makes things worse, especially at low tracking weights. Forgive me for going on about it... The Delrin pawl has enough low friction and smooth running as it is...


Nevertheless, Dual lubricated these parts at the factory as described, including the friction lever. I only replaced lube where I had previously cleaned it off. I wish that I had a lubrication guide similar to the SMs for the idler tables, but I don't think such a thing exists.

I had bad behavior from a 1019 cam shutoff mechanism until I put some damping oil on the pivot as Klaus suggested, so I am with him on that issue entirely. I even considered putting some on the 515 for just that reason. But the pivot on the 515 seemed dry, and I looked at it very carefully, so I left it that way. To be honest the cam post seemed dry too (not the base which MUST be lubricated (because of the ball bearing) but the post/hub that the cam rotates around).

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby DSJR » 08 Sep 2017 09:27

Up to you sir :) The basic velocity trip works the same for all these decks, it's just that Dual and B&O in their cleverly designed and stylish decks, used finer parts than Garrard did and it's my view from experience that adding lube here increases drag unnecessarily. I suspect the 515 wasn't designed for 1g tracking cartridges -

Garrard in their large format models (SL75/95/AP75 onwards) were trying to achieve much with the Plessey penny-pinchers always over their shoulder diluting some of the fine engineering potential in my opinion. They also lubricated the trip pawls on some models with the same disastrous end result. Experiences with the related AP76 and the further tweaked Zero 100 with lighter refined parts here over earlier models, has shown me that any lubrication of these cam mounted parts messes up end of side performance with higher compliance low tracking weight pickups and ideally, I prefer to leave them 'rattly.'
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 08 Sep 2017 21:50

DSJR wrote:Up to you sir :) The basic velocity trip works the same for all these decks, it's just that Dual and B&O in their cleverly designed and stylish decks, used finer parts than Garrard did and it's my view from experience that adding lube here increases drag unnecessarily. I suspect the 515 wasn't designed for 1g tracking cartridges -

Garrard in their large format models (SL75/95/AP75 onwards) were trying to achieve much with the Plessey penny-pinchers always over their shoulder diluting some of the fine engineering potential in my opinion. They also lubricated the trip pawls on some models with the same disastrous end result. Experiences with the related AP76 and the further tweaked Zero 100 with lighter refined parts here over earlier models, has shown me that any lubrication of these cam mounted parts messes up end of side performance with higher compliance low tracking weight pickups and ideally, I prefer to leave them 'rattly.'


I forgot to thank you for bringing up these issues. I thought about giving my rationale for lubes in want of official guidance but decided to wait and see what the reaction might be.

I had to infer all guidance from inspection. Everyone needs to understand that what I "recommend" is no more than what I myself chose to do. My choices are somewhat based on best practices for idler models, which may or may not obtain with the 515. Your experience is considerably more than mine, DSLR. People need to make their own decisions. I have had apparent success doing something different from what you propose on Dual idler models; but I cannot say you are wrong about the 515. My model has been modified so that the platter goes on-off with a switch and is no longer integrated with tonearm operation and startup. My only criterion to determine success is return of the tonearm to rest at end of play.

I am quite open to the possibility that the shutoff mechanism of the 515 might be fine dry. On a 1019, the reason I believe the copper lever needs a hint of silicon oil at the pivot and alvania on the three little bumps is that there is a thin spring post that pushes the copper lever to a new position as the cam turns. The lever needs to move freely but it must not be so free that it ricochets back to the position it was in before. That copper lever should move *slowly* back and forth when you hold the cam side-wise and let gravity operate on it. It's not friction at play but dampening.

The 515 shutoff mech doesn't have something like the 1019's spring post. The operation is the same in that it must be ready to engage the platter at the start of both of the cam's intended operations but get out of the way as the cam turns and get back into start up position when the cam resumes its neutral position after the tonearm has returned to rest at end of play. The copper lever is married to a plastic base on the 515, which is in turn integrated into the cam in the sense that the base plate does not rotate on a separate post which is press fitted into the cam; the post is part of the molded base piece itself on the 515. I decided not to remove the white base piece because I couldn't identify a fastener and considered that removing it might not be reversible.

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby b+v8an » 09 Sep 2017 17:17

Just want to say thanks for the great pics and procedural.I tore down a similar model last year,and had parts and pieces everywhere!It took quite a while to get it back together(had to find the balls first!)
I really like these tables.One thing I did was cut the button holes out of a piece of felt,and glue it to the back of the faceplate to keep them from wobbling.
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby DSJR » 09 Sep 2017 21:26

I've had no need to tear down the 1019, but it may have to have the arm checked as the lateral friction is variable with slight stiction across it's travel (I even suspect the ball rolling under the shut-off slider and the end of the antiskate spring which seemed jerky in moving around the tonearm end of it's fixing as the tonearm is moved (I can't explain it better). I don't want to strip the arm out to check the lateral ball races, but it may come to that - eek! The pawl and friction link are both perfectly free to move independently and I have no idea how they're 'sorted' as made.

The trip pawls on all the auto decks I know have some form of device to retract them ready for the next operation, either a post or pin which contacts part of the pawl as the cam rotates and friction lever, gently pushing it back ready for next use. I tried to look for a cheap 515 or close relative to see properly for myself, but sadly in the UK, these have gone the way of the 505 models and are currently going for a hundred quid or more and I have far too many turntables as it is, even for two stereo systems :( Looking at your pics, I suspect the turntable main bearing housing itself acts as the retraction method as the 'tail' of the friction lever seems shaped that way?

The only Dual cams I've needed to work on are the 1214, which had been 'greased' heavy-handedly by a previous owner (this has a threaded 'nut' on the cam to hold the trip assembly in place), the 601 snd 701, this latter original cam needing replacement as it had stripped a tooth in one of it's accelerating-mad phases. The 701 pawls were definitely dry on both cams, as the shaking chassis (when the platter accelerated uncontrollably with me not present) caused these pawls to move and trip the mechanism. The 601 pawls were fine so I left them well alone and can't remember if they had any lubricant or not.

Look, if your deck works perfectly with a touch of Alvania on the trip pawl, then that's perfect. Forgive this old fool who's serviced/bodged too many old Garrard auto decks over fifty years (I started very young ;)).
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 10 Sep 2017 00:10

b+v8an wrote:Just want to say thanks for the great pics and procedural.I tore down a similar model last year,and had parts and pieces everywhere!It took quite a while to get it back together(had to find the balls first!)
I really like these tables.One thing I did was cut the button holes out of a piece of felt,and glue it to the back of the faceplate to keep them from wobbling.


You're welcome. I hope it is helpful to someone as I have been helped similarly in the past.

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby FastFolkert » 16 Sep 2017 19:33

jdubbie wrote:With luck this topic will include 28 photos of the teardown and cam service of a modified CS 515. jdubbie 9/2017

Many thanks, and very helpful since I am working on a 515 that does not play all records to the end.
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 17 Sep 2017 00:58

FastFolkert wrote:
jdubbie wrote:With luck this topic will include 28 photos of the teardown and cam service of a modified CS 515. jdubbie 9/2017

Many thanks, and very helpful since I am working on a 515 that does not play all records to the end.


If it has helped you, it was worth it to me to do it. :D

The method for opening the 515 is similar to the 616Q, which I have worked on. It looks like it might be relevant to the 530 and perhaps a couple other late models as well.

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby WallK » 10 Dec 2017 18:17

jdubbie wrote:
The method for opening the 515 is similar to the 616Q, which I have worked on. It looks like it might be relevant to the 530 and perhaps a couple other late models as well.

jdubbie


It helped me a lot with 616Q, but I don't know how to take off platter...

Edit: ok, so light tapping on spindle while holding platter a bit worked!
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby rckeller » 19 Dec 2017 21:10

Thanks SO much for this post. It was enormously helpful to me in repairing my CS 515. I don't think I would have had the courage to dig into it without this guidance, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to isolate the problem without it. You've done a huge service for owners of this turntable!
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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby jdubbie » 19 Dec 2017 21:21

rckeller wrote:Thanks SO much for this post. It was enormously helpful to me in repairing my CS 515. I don't think I would have had the courage to dig into it without this guidance, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to isolate the problem without it. You've done a huge service for owners of this turntable!


Thanks for taking the time to let me know it was helpful.

What ended up being the problem you were able to chase down?

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Re: CS 515 teardown and cam service

Postby rckeller » 19 Dec 2017 21:24

Two problems: one was failure of the auto-return, which required replacement of the steuerpimpel. I never would have figured out the location without you pointing to it! A simple fix with a ball-point pen insert has taken care of it. The second was that the turntable often had a delayed start or wouldn't start at all when moving the tonearm. A bit of cleaning and lubrication at a few different points seems to have taken care of this (fingers crossed!).

Thanks again!
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