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Some questions about Dual 1019

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Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 21 Apr 2017 13:33

Today a DPD van left a huge box at my door. Inside was a beautiful Dual 1019 in the Grundig base. The turntable is in excellent cosmetic condition. It was supposed to be fully serviced and 100% functional, however, it has some problems...

1) The idler wheel itself makes a terrible racket when it's spinning. I even made a video to demonstrate this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL4zUUzGcds

2) The turntable runs slow. I can barely make it run on speed at 33 RPM if I turn the pitch control knob all the way up. But I can't make it run on speed at 45 and 78 RPM because it's so slow it's out of adjustment range. (Verified with a stroboscopic disc.)

3) The main bearing also makes a subtle scratching noise which unfortunately makes it into the signal (I can hear it through my headphones).

I have looked at the service manual and I think I can address the problem number 2. But I have no idea how to tackle problems number 1 and 3. Will I need to purchase a new idler wheel? And what about quieting the main bearing?
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 21 Apr 2017 15:10

I may have answered my own question... The edge of the idler wheel bushing rubs the chassis. Now I only need to know how to remedy the situation :-)
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby DSJR » 21 Apr 2017 17:24

Pictures please :)

Klaus here (Dualcan) has set up a site with ALL YOU EVER NEED TO KNOW about stripping out a 1019 to almost the last nut and bolt and giving it the service of its life.

This is still one hell of a great vinyl spinner and it deserves care and huge respect in its restoration. Once done, the deck will repay you with many more decades of wonderful 'musical' reproduction, as do most Duals from the 60's and early 70's once carefully serviced.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 21 Apr 2017 21:09

I was trying to adjust the speed, but the idler wheel shaft was really stuck and in my infinite stupidity I managed to strip the screwdriver slot on its top. What is my best course of action — finding a new idler wheel bracket or trying to make a new slot with a small diamond file?
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby DSJR » 22 Apr 2017 10:37

Organdonorparts may be your best friends here -

http://organdonorparts.com/Dual-1019-Tu ... 67_c82.htm

Oh, and Dualcan's expert site pages regarding properly stripping out and servicing these endearing old machines will help you properly refit the parts.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 28 Apr 2017 12:18

Already ordered the part from Organdonorparts, God bless them! I have another qualestion now: is the counterweight supposed to be loose? I know it's "decoupled", but on mine the inner plastic tube is really rattling inside the outer metal part...
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby jdubbie » 28 Apr 2017 13:43

stratokaster83 wrote:Already ordered the part from Organdonorparts, God bless them! I have another qualestion now: is the counterweight supposed to be loose? I know it's "decoupled", but on mine the inner plastic tube is really rattling inside the outer metal part...


It should have a bit of wobble perhaps but not be rattling. The idea is that you should be able to get the tonearm roughly weighted correctly by sliding the shaft in or out of the end of the tonearm after loosening the set screw, and then the weight itself should turn in or out on the threads to get precise balance. Not knowing exactly what you mean by "rattling" or "decoupled" in the context, I'd say that if the weight moves in and out on its threads when you turn it, it's working.

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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby DSJR » 30 Apr 2017 22:43

If my sample is anything to go by, don't trust the tracking force dial!! As received, mine was half a gramme heavy at 1,5g. Klaus will advise properly, but I 'fixed it' by carefully re-aligning the tracking force dial/drum and very carefully checking the left bearing screw which seemed slightly loose (no inner screw and locking collar on these). Anyway, all seems well now and it's tracking an Ortofon 510 well at 1.5g.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby jdubbie » 01 May 2017 13:48

DSJR wrote:If my sample is anything to go by, don't trust the tracking force dial!! As received, mine was half a gramme heavy at 1,5g. Klaus will advise properly, but I 'fixed it' by carefully re-aligning the tracking force dial/drum and very carefully checking the left bearing screw which seemed slightly loose (no inner screw and locking collar on these). Anyway, all seems well now and it's tracking an Ortofon 510 well at 1.5g.


I think both of mine check out at least .5g heavy. It somewhat depends on what one accepts as "balanced" when it is zeroed out. There is a sort of "high balance" and a "low balance". I try to make sure I get more of a "high balance" and the dial is a bit more accurate then. The good thing in my situation is that at least both of my machines are a match in this respect.

One of my 1019s has a very stiff anti-skate dial. Playing with the adjustment sometimes messes up the travel to and set-down on the tonearm rest. I hate to experiment with cleaners or lubricants in that area. Open to suggestions.

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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby dualcan » 01 May 2017 20:00

Hi,
There is only one balance point- water level. I had this crazy two balance points as well. In most cases the vertical bearing races are dirty,stuck, damaged or overtightened.
It took me a while to figure out why I still had a "high and low" on a thoroughly cleaned set of bearings with perfectly set bearing play.
Turns out the "Magnetic" part of the cart did its job-- rather too well--.
The cart/arm, if over compensated by the c weight, will of course raise the cart. As soon as the c weight/cart neared water level, the cart's magnet would pull the arm to chassis and thereby creating what would seem a low balance. Getting fed up with this nonsense I removed the (1219) arm from the unit and balanced it off chassis:
DSC00075.JPG

DSC00076.JPG


To sum up,
a. check the bearings if they are clean an the balls rotate freely,
b. check the play on the bearings
c. make sure the tracking dial is set properly at zero/line on arm
d. make sure the spring is set properly inside the dial housing.
e. make sure that the arm is (water-level) balanced
In case of magnetic attraction, balance as close as possible, before arm gets pulled.
Once these precautions are taken care of, these dials are incredibly accurate from the 1009 onwards:
1009 TF.JPG

1229 TF.JPG

Regards
k
Klaus Adlhoch, fmr. Assistant Service Manager,
Noresco -N.Q.I.-Dual of Canada,
Area of expertise: Tech Training and Consumer Service P.R.
Associated with Dual till Thompson era.
Favorite Duals: TG 12a, 1009, 721.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby DSJR » 02 May 2017 18:22

I have an extremely handy and cheap little Ortofon balance, which 'calibrates/matches' perfectly with the other Duals and Garrards I have. I haven't wanted to start stripping the 1019 arm out yet. The arm 'floats' nicely now, with decent vertical free movement and no bearing 'clicking' if the headshell is gently rocked. As suggested in the manual - cough - the cueing device must only work over the final 1/4" or so of lowering, otherwise the horizontal bearing friction is a mite high. Set as instructed, the arm traverses smoothly if not as wonderfully as the later gimbal types do.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 23 May 2017 23:51

Progress report:

- my replacement idler shaft from organdonorparts.com seems to be lost in transit :-(

- on the other hand, I relubricated the idler bearing on my turntable, and this made it much quieter

- I installed an aftermarket cartridge sled from eBay and it completely solved my problems with connectivity

- but suddenly the main bearing started making really loud grinding noises. Argh!

Should I relubricate the main bearing? Is it possible to replace Renotac with some other adhesive oil, for example, chainsaw oil?
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby Tinkaroo » 24 May 2017 11:02

stratokaster83 wrote:Progress report:

- my replacement idler shaft from organdonorparts.com seems to be lost in transit :-(

- on the other hand, I relubricated the idler bearing on my turntable, and this made it much quieter

- I installed an aftermarket cartridge sled from eBay and it completely solved my problems with connectivity

- but suddenly the main bearing started making really loud grinding noises. Argh!

Should I relubricate the main bearing? Is it possible to replace Renotac with some other adhesive oil, for example, chainsaw oil?


You should probably remove the platter bearing from it's metal enclosure,clean it thoroughly,reassemble the bearing in the metal enclosure and relubricate before reinstalling the platter.

A bit of grit in there can cause noise issues such as what you mention.
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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby jdubbie » 24 May 2017 14:09

stratokaster83 wrote:Progress report:

- my replacement idler shaft from organdonorparts.com seems to be lost in transit :-(

- on the other hand, I relubricated the idler bearing on my turntable, and this made it much quieter

- I installed an aftermarket cartridge sled from eBay and it completely solved my problems with connectivity

- but suddenly the main bearing started making really loud grinding noises. Argh!

Should I relubricate the main bearing? Is it possible to replace Renotac with some other adhesive oil, for example, chainsaw oil?


Sorry about your problems. I doubt that your main bearing suddenly became "un-lubricated" if it has been working well recently. Since you recently worked on the idler, make sure it is secured corrected with the O-ring keeper at the top seated correctly. Try re-seating the platter with respect to the idler wheel. Check for noise at all speeds. Try switching to 78 and then back to 33 rpm until the rubber of the wheel is where it wants to be. Make sure the selector mechanism is moving freely and is properly lubricated.

I do like chainsaw bar oil for the main bearing. I guess it can't hurt to lubricate it, but I agree with Tinkaroo that if there is any doubt about the main bearing, you should pull it and disassemble and clean it. This is MUCH easier to do when you are doing a cam service -- in fact, I'm not sure it is physically possible to get the bearing out without removing the cam and main bearing frame.

I like Stihl Bar Oil, which is clear (some bar oils are colored). (This is a popular brand in North America. I don't know what is available in Europe, sorry.) I put some in a cheap, non-medical syringe and use that to put a little between each "layer" of the bearing as I reassemble the parts. It does quiet down the bearing so significantly that my 1019s are indistinguishable in my normal listening practices from my belt-driven tables. It is a very satisfying service from an audiophile standpoint.

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Re: Some questions about Dual 1019

Postby stratokaster83 » 24 May 2017 16:48

I'm pretty sure the noise is made by the main bearing because it's there even when the turntable is off and I turn the platter by hand. I was away for few days and the turntable was sitting unused, when I returned and turned it on, the noise was the first thing I noticed.
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