the home of the turntable

Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

twice the fun

Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 06 Apr 2017 15:19

Hi All,

Just in the middle of the restoration/servicing of my latest 1219.
Everything worked more or less OK, but the baby needed a thorough clean.
So I serviced the main cam, the main lever, the blocked speed selector, changed the pimpel, etc.
After all this, no tonearm movements anymore.
Solved this by acting on 196 and 177.
Then the motor wouldn't stop: cleaned the 176 assy and fixed that too.
Now the tonearm won't lift and go back to rest at the end of the record: has to be pushed over the label. Adjusting the tonearm set down position doesn't change anything.
Any idea? Nothing about this in the SM.
Thanks for your usual help!
Cheers,

Hugh.
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby dualcan » 06 Apr 2017 17:41

Hi Hugh,
If on any Dual changer, the run out adjustment on the segment (for 1219- segment’s eccentric pin for shut off rail) is insufficient to activate cycling, then the first thing to check is if the aluminium arm has a (sideways) bent which is hard to see because it usually occurs right at the juncture to the black bearing traverse in the tone arm support (gimble in your case). This happens more frequently as the alu tube gets thinner with the progressive model years. Even a slight bent can be enough to upset the arm positioning with bending in both vertical and/or horizontal planes. Since this bend also would shift the Start indexing, a client might have adjusted the start set down point, masking the arm problem.
The next issue is that (again any Dual) segment might be off rotationally which will exhibit the same phenomena as with the bend arm. A cure might be to loosen and rotate the segment slightly in favour of the missing distance of trip link (1219 item 158)
Next, is a problem with the cam's shut off levers and plate (1219- item 231 and 232) If they are too loose, the unit will cycle-repeat ad infinitum; if too tight, won't trigger in the run out groove. Follow the cam guide listed above in the Servicing Dual tt's above for the cure.
Lastly, the trip link (1219 item 158) was accidentally bent short. You can increase the rail's reach by slightly bending the contact nose outwards. Make sure the rail's (1219 item 158) contact nose stays parallel to the rest of the rail and that it is not bent too high and out of reach of the cams' shut off plate (1219 item 232).
Regards,
k
Klaus Adlhoch, fmr. Assistant Service Manager,
Noresco -N.Q.I.-Dual of Canada,
Area of expertise: Tech Training and Consumer Service P.R.
Associated with Dual till Thompson era.
Favorite Duals: TG 12a, 1009, 721.
User avatar
dualcan
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 3167
Images: 88
Joined: 15 Nov 2013 23:53
Location: Sorel-Tracy Quebec

Canada

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 06 Apr 2017 18:15

Thanks a bunch Klaus for your usual "to the point" answer!
Will check these items tomorrow.
Had a try on "multi" with a few 45's on the thin spindle: it worked perfectly.
But not with the AS12, nor in "single" mode. Probably a really minor misadjusting.
Will keep you informed.
have a nice day,

Cheers,

Hugh.
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby dualcan » 06 Apr 2017 21:30

Hi,
The 1219 1229 and Q will not work as a changer (AW3 or AS12) when the single / multi switch is in single mode. This a lock-out feature which is activated by lever 196. In the single mode, the records are prohibited from dropping because your cart is set for single record VTA. Subsequent dropping and playing records would perhaps have the heel of the cart scraping the record since the cart is at an optimum VTA for one record.
Another example of the refined engineering from the past.
In multi mode if the records drop from the AW3 but not the AS12, then perhaps it is an AS12 problem, or the drop adjustment is off:
1219 JB T 08a.JPG

1219 JB T 08f.JPG

See also Fig 22 in the manual
1219 JB T 08b.JPG

Regards,
k
Klaus Adlhoch, fmr. Assistant Service Manager,
Noresco -N.Q.I.-Dual of Canada,
Area of expertise: Tech Training and Consumer Service P.R.
Associated with Dual till Thompson era.
Favorite Duals: TG 12a, 1009, 721.
User avatar
dualcan
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 3167
Images: 88
Joined: 15 Nov 2013 23:53
Location: Sorel-Tracy Quebec

Canada

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 07 Apr 2017 17:42

Thanks Klaus,

Tried tweaking the shut off lever (231) and it worked on a stack of 45's for a while.
Then tried with an LP and the tonearm wouldn't lift anymore.
Must be a really tiny detail.
Will clean the main cam (again!), maybe a little too much silicone or Alvania in the lever makes it stick. Hope I won't lose the tiny circlip!
The cam follower lever (254) works flawlessly.
Will advise of the result.
Cheers,

Hugh.
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 19 Apr 2017 15:23

OK, problem fixed finally, after a lot of trial and error work!
The friction plate of the shut-off lever (231/232) was out of adjustment: had been bent sideways by 3 or 4 mm, so the shut off slide (159) couldn't reach it properly.
I also had to bend the head of the shut off slide to the right to make it meet the lever.
Now everything is back to normal operation and my 1219 works like a new one again in all possible functions.
Thanks again to Klaus for his lecture!
Cheers,

Hugh.
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby DSJR » 21 Apr 2017 17:28

I had the same issue with a replacement (used) cam for my 701, the vertical 'tongue' on the friction lever/trip pawl being slightly out of line and tilted differently to the original. Once set as near as possible to the original cam (with broken tooth, hence the replacement), everything works perfectly now.
User avatar
DSJR
long player
long player
 
Posts: 1752
Images: 43
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

United Kingdom

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 21 Apr 2017 17:57

Hi All,

This is the wonderful thing about this forum: one learns continually from the fellow members experience.
Just finished servicing the motor: really like new inside, but bone dry and a very worn copper disk, but the chrome plated rotor axle is fine. Polished the disk and refilled with fresh oil.
Spins fine now.
One question: used tacky chain oil to lube the platter axle and bearing. It spins noiselessly and regularly, but I can't get more than 15" from 33 to zero RPM.
My other tables were lubed with synthetic 10W30 motor oil and delivered a 90 to 110"... with a little oil dripping on the plinth under the bearing.
Is it so important to have a long speed dropping time?
Your opinion would be appreciated, as usual. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Hugh.
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby dualcan » 21 Apr 2017 18:17

Hi Hugh,
The run out time is dependent on the viscosity, if all else is ok (bushings etc.)
If the run out is a bit longer, that in itself is not so important providing the wow (speed consistency) and motor load is not in peril. The can motor has plenty of power of take care of that anyways. The reason for the adhesive oil is primarily to keep it in place on the vertical shaft/bushing, normal oil will slip down and eventually leave the bushing run dry- not good!
Regards,
Klaus
Klaus Adlhoch, fmr. Assistant Service Manager,
Noresco -N.Q.I.-Dual of Canada,
Area of expertise: Tech Training and Consumer Service P.R.
Associated with Dual till Thompson era.
Favorite Duals: TG 12a, 1009, 721.
User avatar
dualcan
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 3167
Images: 88
Joined: 15 Nov 2013 23:53
Location: Sorel-Tracy Quebec

Canada

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby Hugues TR4 » 21 Apr 2017 20:09

Thank you Klaus.
Will leave it as it is for the time being, all the rest runs perfect.
Next step is re-polishing the dust cover, which is complete and intact.
Only needs a new right top hinge. Will make a new attempt to make one out a piece of plastic (the material they use here for the "wine-in-box" handle, which is very resistant to folding). Just glue a small strip on the existing broken one. Only problem is finding the right glue (cyanolite doesn't hold).
Will advise if I find a suitable one.

Cheers,

Hugh.3787237873
Dual 1019/Shure M97xE/Jico SAS stylus + 1219/Shure V15 III + 1225
Thorens TD 146 & TD 166/Ortofon OMB5 and OM40 carts
Marantz Mod 6170/Marantz E 5000 cart
RCA 45 J-2 RP 190 record changer (1952)
Hugues TR4
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 1039
Images: 87
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 10:33
Location: Belgium

Belgium

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby jdubbie » 29 Apr 2017 04:26

Hugues TR4 wrote:One question: used tacky chain oil to lube the platter axle and bearing. It spins noiselessly and regularly, but I can't get more than 15" from 33 to zero RPM.
My other tables were lubed with synthetic 10W30 motor oil and delivered a 90 to 110"... with a little oil dripping on the plinth under the bearing.
Is it so important to have a long speed dropping time?
Your opinion would be appreciated, as usual. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Hugh.


I noticed the same thing on a couple of tables the first time I used Stihl bar oil for the bearing. Platters that had turned for what seemed like several minutes before would come to a stop in much less time. But I decided it was fine. The oil is fairly heavy and sticky. I like knowing that the lube is there to stay. The bearing seems nice and quiet too. My 1019s seem very quiet now. Perhaps that can be attributed to the lube in some way.

jdubbie
jdubbie
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 312
Images: 54
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 20:48

United States of America

Re: Dual 1219: tonearm won't lift at end of record

Postby mrow2 » 29 Apr 2017 04:39

There is anecdotal evidence pointing to this, I recall threads from years ago where this conclusion was reached. Longest spin time is not the most important criteria, and over the years others have observed this "quiet" effect that tacky lubes have. The motors are capable enough, so you just need to verify that the drive system is clean and optimized (i.e., the idler and platter drum, etc.).
Steuerpimpel, Control nipple stud, Guide (and sometimes it's not even listed or numbered) -- Whatever name for them is found in the factory Service Manual; old worn and cracked ones can rub tonearms just half-way. Or, not at all. Keep 'em guiding and gliding.
User avatar
mrow2
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 2798
Images: 13
Joined: 25 Aug 2010 03:05
Location: Orange County, California

United States of America

Return to Dual