A bit of Nostalgia

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dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 10 Mar 2016 01:16

Hi Phil,
If we look at a four pole motor stator we see two coils , each coil with a positive and a negative pole:
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This type of motor has a fair bit of "empty space" between the poles so we theoretically have pole jerk. This is largely mitigated by the relatively high RPM but the motor is still affected.

With the 1009 / 1019 motor, we double that and put in four coils:
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Here the rotor is much more controlled because the induced power come from "4 corners" There is less dead space between the coils. This does not however make it "continuous"

This last bit of engineering occurs on the rotor:
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You can see the surface of the rotor has slanted "cuts". These slanted sections will pass by in front of one pole on top while the bottom is on the next,(or vice versa..) so leaving no dead spots, ergo continous power induction thus no pole jerk.
BTW, the black ring on top of the rotor is the magnetic ring for the synchronous section of the 1219 motor (the Garrard invention).
Regards,
k

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 10 Mar 2016 02:07

Talking about skewed rotors, no one guessed which manufacturer produced the little engine that Shure does (not) run well a few pictures back!
The Rapido type couplers are (or at least were) standard on all N scale locomotives. This particular engine is an Arnold BR 89, item nr 0222, and this coupler was their design.
Why mention skewed motor in context with N scale trains? The early '60 model trains looked super but ran awful! Once the choo choo engineers at the model train manufacturers played with a 1219 (they could have :mrgreen: ...) and found that its motor had a skewed rotor a light went on - just like Mr Ford's Better Idea...
In any event, once these tiny locomotives motors were fitted with the same skewed rotors, all of a sudden, they would run or creep as slow as you wanted, without,- you guessed it,-pole jerk! For these tiny motors, the space between the poles meant that you had to run the train fast, if at all, otherwise they would stall.
So maybe our continuous motor designer team actually influenced a whole bunch of other stuff... ... well they might have!!
Regards,
k

vinyl master
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by vinyl master » 10 Mar 2016 03:42

Hmmm...Fascinating info there, Klaus...I'll have to think about that the next time I decide to dig out my old trains...Who knows...My niece and nephew might enjoy them someday... :-k

In any case, I feel the mighty 1218 and 1219 will be previewed shortly, so I await your next postings...

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 10 Mar 2016 04:03

An here we go with some more antics:
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and the response:
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And now we say good bye to the 1000 series!

Let's leave the hot heads for a while and look at the hot item of the day:
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Chips are in! Yummy-NOT!
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...and made in Montreal who'da thunk! Made by Northern Electric Telephone..
Whatever happened to Nor Tel?!?
The first time I got defective LSI (millipedes) chip in a component, paying a flat rate (all of $15) for the pleasure of unsoldering a double sided PC board with said 100 or so pins, I just sent it back to the manufacturer and kindly told them to
And that's another chapter!
Regards,
k

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 11 Mar 2016 18:40

Hi V-M.
I'm going to go completely off the rails (on the rails??) here, go into "brag" mode for a second and suggest this clip from last weekend.

The "engineer", wearing the "train" t shirt and running 4205 is actually a mechanical engineer, working in the actual North American railway industries on the rail safety side of things. He is a serious rail nut 24/7, but occasionally his ol'man can convince him to work on a few Dual parts, such as the dearing ring....
This video shows some beautiful work by the S Scale Society (1/64). The locomotives are made completely by the members and utilize- skew rotored motors, DCC controls, sound and video equipped. "Brag" mode off...
Have I convinced you to take the trains out yet???
I will change to the regular scheduled program in a minute...
Yes, the 1219 is next, but the 1218 comes a bit later because it's the 1209 that is still the little brother!
Regards,
k

Coffee Phil
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by Coffee Phil » 11 Mar 2016 20:29

Hi Dualcan,

Thanks for the reply and pictures. Both stators appear to be 4 pole, shaded pole stators. Clearly the second one is more sophisticated and of higher quality, but they are both 4 pole stators. I do believe that setting the rotor shorting bars at an angle does have an advantage for smooth torque. On the continuous pole thing it appears that Dual was using the same copywriter Bob Carver used: Magnetic field amplifier, charge-coupled FM detector and so forth. Now I own a Carver TX11a and it is a fine tuner, but it has a standard quadrature FM demodulator. What is all this charge coupled horse-pucky?

I did not know that Dual used the combination squirrel cage / hysteresis rotor Garrard was touting. I think that was advertising fluff as well. True that hysteresis motors are synchronous but I don't think that is the big deal. Induction motors while not synchronous are stable in speed and the ratio between the motor shaft and platter is not exact any way unless you use gears, chain, or cogged belt. I think the big deal with a hysteresis motor (from a turntable perspective) is that if the rotor is geometrically symmetrical it will be well balanced. I think the balance issue for a "Syncro-Lab" motor will be similar to that of a squirrel cage motor.

Phil


dualcan wrote:Hi Phil,
If we look at a four pole motor stator we see two coils , each coil with a positive and a negative pole:
DSC00322.JPG
This type of motor has a fair bit of "empty space" between the poles so we theoretically have pole jerk. This is largely mitigated by the relatively high RPM but the motor is still affected.

With the 1009 / 1019 motor, we double that and put in four coils:
DSC00323.JPG
Here the rotor is much more controlled because the induced power come from "4 corners" There is less dead space between the coils. This does not however make it "continuous"

This last bit of engineering occurs on the rotor:
DSC00324.JPG
You can see the surface of the rotor has slanted "cuts". These slanted sections will pass by in front of one pole on top while the bottom is on the next,(or vice versa..) so leaving no dead spots, ergo continous power induction thus no pole jerk.
BTW, the black ring on top of the rotor is the magnetic ring for the synchronous section of the 1219 motor (the Garrard invention).
Regards,
k

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 12 Mar 2016 00:33

Ok, back to our combatants.
Like, in the left corner, like, we have, like, spiralling towards Nirvana:
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Followed by jab to the right:
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Eh, well yes, it's a gimbal, if we keep in mind on one plane only; vertical plane. The horizontal plane still uses a set of ball races under the chassis; exactly like the 1009/1019; which also uses needle bearings-in one plane- which means it is a squared version of a gimbal - with a gyroscope thrown in -for good measure...

and then up the middle:
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...gentlest recognized by whom, pray tell??

And in for a try at a knock-out:
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We'll give the SL 95 a technical motor advantage and the Elac also for a very good note for its Pabst motor, for the rest ---meh...

It is now time for the Black Forest camp to flex some muscles!
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Note the rather soft description of the motor with Synchronous principals.
You know that despite everything else this changer has, them's is fightin' words!
And the cross channel dialog will hit a fever pitch -pun intended.
Regards,
k

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 14 Mar 2016 01:00

As long as the market is stunned with the introduction of the 1219, we can look at some other stuff being peddled:
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And something nice from Sony:
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some carts, tt's and things:
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Can a Sansui be far behind?:
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Finally some American Beauties:
69 2-7.jpg
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That's it for now!
k

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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by seamonster » 14 Mar 2016 01:19

Wonderful model train footage. Thanks!

DualDude1010
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by DualDude1010 » 14 Mar 2016 01:56

Klaus, as an owner of a considerable American Flyer collection, thank you !
Also had N scale in my teens before I realized it would never have the same enjoyment as s scale..

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 17 Mar 2016 02:26

Here we have Perfection Itself:
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I had the unfortunate encounter with this perfection in the sixties, and well,
let's be kind and say it turned...
At least we know where the left-over 1009 heads went to...

For a bit of Canadiana, a look at a true radio pioneer:
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I wonder what Ted would think of the price gouging being carried out in his name today....

And what would this thread be without:
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And that's another fiver'.
k

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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by ren2112 » 17 Mar 2016 16:04

WOW, I'm modeling an HO scale Layout-very simple though, couple of Steam trains 2-6-2, 0-6-0 and a Berckshire(polar express) on a main and a little switching yard.

So cool

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 17 Mar 2016 18:32

Finally someone in my scale!
I have to confess though that I am a Dualist in trains as well--, mostly HO but also dabble in the Goofy scale!
Then there is Delson's Exporail:
IMG_0036.JPG
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Mostly armchair modelling for the last xx years, but never the less..
k

dualcan
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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by dualcan » 18 Mar 2016 00:23

..and back to all things Dual, Here is the line up as presented in Canada for the end of '69:
69 10-02.jpg
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With a closer look at the 1212:
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For a look at the receiver / amplifier side of things, we see something powerful:
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and from another camp these receivers:
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Finally we round up with what rocks in Britain:
69 9-1.jpg
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And that covers it for today!
k

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Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Post by vinyl master » 18 Mar 2016 04:32

Fantastic, Klaus! I love it! 8) It looks like both Pioneer and Sansui were putting out some real winners around this time...And it seems like Pioneer wanted the popular vote, while Sansui was going after the "progressive" vote...Both very good for their time, but it's interesting to see how these are all being marketed...At least, with Dual and Garrard, every time one company had a new feature or angle, the other would have an answer back for it...

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