Page 5 of 30

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 05 Mar 2016 02:50
by vinyl master
I'm guessing the Roberts was Califone, notorious for their "school" record players, and that the train is a T-gauge...As a model train buff, I know it's not HO scale! :lol:

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 05 Mar 2016 10:08
by Tinkaroo
Roberts was made by Akai. :mrgreen:

I had no idea that they made a combo reel to reel/eight track recorder even though I know the eight track is much maligned. They actually made pretty good recordings.

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 05 Mar 2016 11:22
by dualcan
Tsk Tsk Tsk VM....
Look at the couplers...and the manufacturer is the one who invented them....
And Roberts is indeed made by Akai but Califone is also connected:
http://museumofmagneticsoundrecording.o ... berts.html

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 05 Mar 2016 11:58
by Hugues TR4
dualcan wrote:...And Hughes gets the big price or 1219 lever which ever comes first....
I would love to see a picture of the DRIVA if you have one. I found only a very few DRIVA units on Radio Museum and a jukebox, but they are not SABA products.

VM is right on both counts! The PE Rex AA which I had already changed against the original Rex A, would, from the time the pic was taken, soon be changed again for a 1007a, which was a stupid downgrade (in hindsight), if ever there was one! The TK 46 would not last for more than three month before it got thrown out against the TG 12a. The Grundig constantly chewed up tape because of the complicated tape travel / pinch roller to capstan mechanics. The TG 12 was around $50- more expensive if memory recalls, than the TK46 but from then on and until this very day, apart from several tune ups, works like a charm.

Some of the reasons for this, is the solid mechanical set-up and the huge Dual manufactured motor (and equally large flywheel) which puts the TT motor to shame:
TG12 Motor vergleich1.JPG
Last year I saw a sad looking TG28 (which is an improved abysmal TG 27 btw), so I decided to see if I could get this tin crate to function. After a complete restoration it looks al-right and function as it should:
TG 28 007.JPG
The motor in this unit is a slightly differently arranged 2 pole motor from a 1010 or so which hardly has enough power to rewind or fast forward:
The only real highlight in it is the Dual manufactured record/play head.
Hi Klaus,

You won't believe it: the big prize arrived yesterday!
The Santa Maria finally escaped from the mermaids and arrived safely, bringing the long awaited lever! Thanks again!
Still have a partial pic of the Driva taken at my Sister's 18th birthday party (1962).
Will try and scan it, but you can only see the facial part with the tuner.
Actually, DRIVA was a Belgian radio producer from Schaerbeek, one of the Brussels surrounding suburbs. The manager was called Drion and, after abandoning local production, he started importing German radio and stereo products, which he rebadged under his own brand name: it made DRIon and VAn... something (can't remember the right name). I thought they were SABA's or possibly Telefunken's...
He later ran a big electrical sales store in the 70ies.
Will check if I can still find another pic in my late parents old photographs.


Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 06 Mar 2016 23:29
by dualcan
Enter 1969!
The battle of the turntable protagonists goes to a higher pitch (pun intended..) as seen here.
On page 3 as usual we have:
69 1-1.jpg
(486.28 KiB) Downloaded 710 times
The next page has as a reply:
69 1-2.jpg
(193.8 KiB) Downloaded 705 times
It is interesting to note that both parties are right and talking past each other- naturally.
The Garrard motor invention is a masterpiece and Dual will pay royalties for this design.
The heavy platter is still necessary for its flywheel effect because although the Garrard motor syncs into the 50 or 60 hertz, this by no means is a perfect governor. The power grid does have minute errors in frequencies, but all this is outside of the normal human perception in any event.
The Garrard 301 and 401 is a fine testament for a heavy platter and a resounding argument for the positive flywheel effect.
... Now if you put the two together.. but I'm getting ahead of myself....

A proper governor will come from the Japanese turntables in the form of Quartz control which both of these companies avoided, in case of Dual, for way too long and Garrard totally, enabling the Japanese turntables to conquer the market.
But the battle of these two will rise to a higher level soon.
In the mean time, the Japanese invasion of electronics is taking over the North American and then the European market -quietly - with equipment that is getting better all the time and most importantly at prices that are affordable.
The demise of the old staunch producers is inevitable.

Here we have a new line-up with Rotel:
69 1-3.jpg
(197.38 KiB) Downloaded 705 times
The Japanese manufacturers will incorporate new technologies as soon as they are available, and to boot, design and produce more and more of these parts themselves.

This is an ad for the eve growing Sansui line up:
69 1-4.jpg
(401.65 KiB) Downloaded 707 times
In this time frame we see the Euro adds for Grundig receivers with a whopping 15 watts per channel at higher prices; ditto for the Dual amps which are no longer advertised but still available for die-hearts..
Many of the American firms just cave in and start re badging; as will happen everywhere else, much the same as the complete take over of the TV market went.

Occasionally we get a "me too" ad :
69 1-5.jpg
(367.25 KiB) Downloaded 705 times
Elac or Electroacoustic Kiel (1899) was first and foremost in the under-water Morse code (sound) transmission business. In 1948 after U-boats and their sound requirements where no longer required..., they would enter the new field of record players. Early PE and Dual would incorporate Elac ceramic carts (later on magnetic carts as well) and Elac would in turn use motors from them. Until 1956 they would be world leaders in this market and along with PE and Dual would make up 90% of the world market in record player production. In the seventies, the yearly output of Elac would be in the vicinity of on million units with a staff of around three thousand employees. after the bankruptcy in 1978, the still active underwater research section would go to Honeywell and the audio side is still active today with the production high end loudspeaker systems:
And that's the quints of the day!

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 07 Mar 2016 13:02
by Dual_Jean
Fascinating Klaus! :-D

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 08 Mar 2016 00:15
by dualcan
..And the "heat" will be raised a tad higher:
69 2-1.jpg
(441.91 KiB) Downloaded 682 times
This add seems to imply, if you want to accompany a vinyl disc and your piano and record are out of tune, it is easier to retune a piano's 88 keys to match the disc, as opposed to simply changing the pitch of the disc via the record player's pitch control.
It's doable....
The manner in which the Garrard is verified is exactly the same for any turntable. The Dual protocol for testing called for a test disc with 3150 Hertz as opposed to 1000. Either frequency is sent to a wow and flutter meter which has a crystal controlled generator of 1000 or 3150 hertz internally. The record (player) signal is now compared to this signal and the deviation is then calculated and shown in W & F figures. All owners manuals should have these figures in the tech specs.

Now our other folks:
This ad is very close to the end of line for the 1000 series chassis. The hybrid 1210 and 1212 have started the transition.
69 2-2.jpg
(287.41 KiB) Downloaded 685 times
Because the Real News is not quite ready for sale, we yank the other guy’s chain by pointing to all the OEM's using Dual units.

How many and which types do you see??:
69 8-3.jpg
(435.19 KiB) Downloaded 686 times
BTW the ad says the anti-skate is coupled automatically to the tracking force. This applies only to the 1212. There is none on the 1210 and the other three have separate controls; somebody slept at the wheel!
Sony is not shown but will also join the fray, then there is one Japanese outfit that thought otherwise. We'll see him later.

...And in other (old) news we see another British Invasion-one heck of a tape unit!:
69 1-6.jpg
(391.32 KiB) Downloaded 681 times
Ferrograph- built like a battleship was probably a very apt description!
The Pioneer speakers are along for the ride...I believe they where made locally.

A true American Icon and a class act is next:
69 2-3.jpg
(291.43 KiB) Downloaded 684 times
The testing procedure is somewhat different but with their experience in speaker design you can bet its not a gimmick.
And that's a wrap for today!

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 08 Mar 2016 03:30
by vinyl master
It's interesting, too, that the Dual ad states this...

"Dual turntables are so good, in fact, that several big stereo makers don't even use our most expensive model in their most expensive models.

They figure our second-best is more than good enough. And that's not bad for a family of turntables that sells for under $130."

I wonder how many Garrards can say that, although there were some very good ones made... :-k

I also wonder what the percentage/ratio of sales in the shops were for both Dual and Garrard at this time...Did these ads work in swaying buyers and sellers towards one or the other?

In any case, it sounds like no love lost between those two companies at that time...Must have been quite a spirited debate in hi-fi circles among aficionados, too...

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 08 Mar 2016 10:59
by DualDude1010
Wow, flashback ... Love the 8 track "changer". :shock: Have to question reliability...

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 08 Mar 2016 17:43
by dualcan
This trip through the old mags is just a hoot for me! I wish I could scan all the stuff...
Before we turn the flame up another notch between our main combatants, lets look aside a bit. Here is the new Kenwood with "Field Effect Transistor" front end:
69 2-4.jpg
(329.56 KiB) Downloaded 668 times
and something new from Sony with- well you check it out:
69 3-03.jpg
(236.63 KiB) Downloaded 664 times
It seems strange that the Japanese manufacturers managed to make good quality taperecorders in a short time, but never mastered the record changer. All the Japanese TT's are manual and I surmise that the Asian home market was pretty well in line with the Euro market which lost interest in the changers with the advent of real HI FI equipment. The enormous market was North America which would not let go of the changers for a long while. Dual and the other good combatants simply made good decks and it would seem it was cheaper to incorporate some of these, rather than invest in a design that would possibly be outdated soon.
If a changer however could behave as a manual, then it would fare much better. This is probably the benchmark of the 1200 series, because devoid of auto spindle, it will operate as a manual with the power switching automatically activated as opposed to the earlier 1000 series. Having a 12" (or close to) platter as the Elacs and PE had, certainly helped. No, the 1219 is not yet on the market- be patient....

Here we have another bunch of things:
69 2-6.jpg
(323.84 KiB) Downloaded 663 times
I like the RC1 inclusion and it is an early changer manufacturer but not the first.
The first commercially produced unit was the "Automatic Orthophonic" model by the Victor Talking Machine Company (eventually RCA), which was launched in the USA in 1927.
But this is also not the first because the inventor was in all likelihood an Australian by the name of by Eric Waterworth of Hobart, Australia, 1925 (wikipedia).

Here is another Sony which is starting to come on strong and not cheap in all sense of the word:
69 2-5.jpg
(242.98 KiB) Downloaded 664 times
Finally we must have a changer:
69 2-8.jpg
(281.15 KiB) Downloaded 662 times
(do you remember when there was such a thing as service?)
The weekly BSR production at its height would reach 250,000 units.
Dual would figure at its best 6,000 units a day, just to contrast.

It is a mystery to me why the importer Musimart did not extent import the Beograms for a long time, since they did not have any restriction placed on them. Did they really think they could place a BSR besides a B&O.. Granted both started with a "B"...
And for another 13 cents, who was the "big wig" changer manufacturer prior to BSR?

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 08 Mar 2016 22:57
by vinyl master
Hey, Klaus...The "big wig" manufacturer...Was it "The Voice Of Music", or V-M Corporation? Didn't they have a lot of their changers in Zenith consoles?

I'm curious, too...Did all the lower-end manufacturers like General Electric, Panasonic, Westinghouse, and later Soundesign also incorporate BSR changers into their equipment? :-k

Were they the two major low-end suppliers, or were there other start-ups out there?

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 09 Mar 2016 03:27
by dualcan
Right you are! V-M (Benton Harbour) was the real big player which was supplanted by BSR. A good overview of the firms history can be seen here:
To service the European market they licensed overseas manufcaturers. For a long time I was wondering about the early Telefunken changers models TW 501 to 504. These units were sold like hotcakes and OEM'd to to other manufacturers such as Grundig.
Having now looked under deck of both units, the TW 500 series is unmistakably V-M
V-M: ... tables.asp
Telefunken: ... hassis.jpg
The changing mechanism is identical with only small changes.
Telefunken used an AEG 2 pole patented motor. This motor has two coils arranged in such a way as to act as noise self cancelling. This patented design was also used for the Dual tapedecks TG27 to 29.
In the early days (50ies) V-M changers were in all the US made consoles, re-badged of course. When the manufacturers started to import rather than manufacture (late 60ies) BSR replaced the V-M's.
There were some other manufacturers such as Monarch ( a BSR subsidiary) and the now Plessey owned Garrard cheaper lines. Nobody made higher volumes than V-M and subsequently BSR.

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 09 Mar 2016 04:56
by Melos Antropon
dualcan wrote:.
Here is another Sony which is starting to come on strong and not cheap in all sense of the word:
69 2-5.jpg
Not cheap at all is right. When you run $575 dollars through the CPI inflation calculator, it says that $575 dollars in 1969 funds was the equivalent of $3700 in 2016 funds! That was back when high fidelity really *was* a "rich man's hobby".


Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 09 Mar 2016 21:56
I weep when I see the Garrards, which had a good basic design in my opinion, being ruined by Plessey bean counters and sloppy tolerances. it wasn't until the Zero 100 and the belt driven 'SB' models using this chassis that the quality came anywhere near Duals of this era.

Re: A bit of Nostalgia

Posted: 09 Mar 2016 22:46
by Coffee Phil
Hi Dualcan,

I just found this thread. Since the days when I had my 1229Q (don't worry, it went to a good home) I have wondered what on earth they meant by "continuous pole" motor. Can you explain?


dualcan wrote:The date for this ad was 1964. I have every month from mid 1965 till 1983, way past Dual Steidinger era. I can bore you to tears !
Yes every Dual is listed - I just need to check and scan two meters or so of magazines..... Of course the Garrard ads are just a page or two away....
This could be a real job!!
Hmm, what the hell did I get myself into????
BTW, if you read the poop on the 1010, it stated that you can get the 1010 for $59.50 with a 2 pole motor and for $69.50 a 1010 with a "continuous pole" motor. This is the same motor as the 1009 and the 1019.--something to keep in mind-right?