Dual 1229 Repair

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Dualmaniac
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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by Dualmaniac » 05 Jul 2014 08:44

I am not absolutely sure since I did not completely remove the tonearm. I remmoved two small black loose plastic pieces that I think are the locking "ears" on the outer gimble or tonearm bearing. This did not leave the tonearm sloppy loose in all planes, but it slides up / down freely. The single / multi lever will move freely now without lifting or lowering the tonearm. And yes, I was hoping that a 1219 would suffice for parts.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by dualcan » 05 Jul 2014 18:23

Hi,
Keep in mind that although the parts look the same they might not be the same. Case in point, the 1219 was revamped in mid-stream sr nr 140,999 old system; 150,000 new system. Be very careful when swapping parts. Always refer to the exact part number which you need and cross check this number with the replacement item.
If possible make a pic of the issue/parts.
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by Dualmaniac » 05 Jul 2014 23:45

Thanks Klaus. It will be a few days before I can get back to the bench, but here is more information what I think I know and are confused about. The service manual shows the outer ring (60) complete with the locking "ears"; but if the ears are plastic and the ring is metal, it would seem to me that the broken ears could be replaced.
I was hung up on needing the single position because of preference, but could I just let the lift spring hold it up in the multi position and leave it there? I would expect though that the proper up position would not be up completely to maximum travel, rather slightly below that where the locating lever (70) should lock it in proper position. I think that the segment (201) and lift plate (203) have to be in perfect relationship with each other and to the main lever for automatic travel to function. Is it possible to do something here without parts? I don't need complete factory-new condition to be satisfied. Just useability would be fine.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by mrow2 » 06 Jul 2014 01:52

It is a critical area for a turntable, and they made it real complicated with this two position lift jack. I don't know the answer but I'm guessing the proper position (high or low) is very important and that it should not be loose.

Answer to question, if arm was stable and the high position was as it would be if the jack were working, i.e. not sloppy or loose or binding, the cartridge part of it could be adjusted to work with that height so that VTA would not be such a serious issue. The table would be more desirable and valuable if it were fixed properly.


Yes the part with the ears is bonded somehow to the gimbal ring. Seems logical enough that it could be replaced, and it probably could be if there were any around. I personally would take a chance on a 1219 tonearm (try and get a good price on a complete one and buy it) and compare the designs before proceeding. That purchase could always be re-sold if it did not work out. I had one a year ago, but I let it go, think it sold for about $30 or $35 with all those parts.

The proper way is with the lift pieces and gimbal attached to the arm. There are so many 1219s, and therefore there are those individuals willing to part them out whether the units deserve it or not. Obviously you'd want the 1229 arm as a first choice but there are not as many around. As long as you are aware there's a compatibility risk, I think it's worth the gamble. A 3D printer could make the part with the ears (it could then be sanded, finished and even painted) but this involves the gear and ability (skill, software) to make it happen. There is a market for this but I don't think it's a satisfactory one. I don't know how the bottom part with ears attaches to the gimbal ring. The ears, by the way, are usually what breaks. But not always. The gimbal normally would not need to come apart, the tonearm complete would simply be swapped out with gimbal and lift jack parts loose but intact.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by Dualmaniac » 06 Jul 2014 02:54

Thanks mrow2. I need to get the tonearm completely off so I can verify exactly what is broken. I have been able to find the locating lever assembly (70) for both the 1219 and the 1229 for about $12.00 and shipping. I have some hope that is what is broken, not the tonearm ring. But I am tied up for a few days before I can get back to it. I could have had it apart now, but I didn't want it to sit that way for several days while my memory of the disassembly procedure faded.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by dualcan » 06 Jul 2014 04:00

Hi,
I have been mulling this thing over and over... Every move I make (remove spring 78; remove guide 232; lock 60 into a position etc.)comes back to the initial problem and that is that the segment 201 will contact guide 232 and impede movement or if 232 is removed will not co-operate with main lever. The solution has got to be in fixing the dearing ring (60). I think a solution can be had for the "ears" in that a cylinder sleeve is inserted into the cavity of the dearing ring. This sleeve would have to leave room for spring 78 and the head of bearing support 69 to pass. 78 could possibly be exchanged for a smaller diameter one, and the head diameter of 69 slightly reduced. This done then the insert cylinder fitted. This cylinder will have to be machined (Lathe) with a step increase where the "nose" angle begins. Into the new extension drift pins are inserted. A machining job but worth it I think. I need to get a hold of spring 78, and bearing support 69, since I have a dearing ring 60 for measurement but not the other two. The multi switch 70 acts on the outside of the pins so it is not affected, providing its not broken. A variation on that theme calls for a trip to a hobby shop and checking the various diameter alu tubes to slip into 60, might be the first step. This tube can be a backing for the broken ears which now would have something to be epoxied onto..
I wish I had your unit here for this experiment!
The same problem is had on the 1219 1229Q and 1249. The 1249 has a detached bayonet fitting (59) which is easier to reproduce.
The actual plastic (nose) part under the dearing ring should be no problem to manufacture in aluminium with drift pins for contacts. The difficulty is in removing the stem, since it is also the bearing pin for gimbal part 54.
In any event this is worth looking into because it is a crucial piece. Next trip to my brothers shop.... Once I get a defective unit, I'll be able to experiment.
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by Dualmaniac » 06 Jul 2014 04:52

Thanks again Klaus. It does sound like I have aroused your interest. I will get a closer look at everything about mid week. It is important to me. This is not only one of the most desirable models that Dual made, it was my workhorse for many years when I was single and had discretionary income for many good lp's. It has many hours of careful use. This problem likely ocurred during a moving experience.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by mrow2 » 06 Jul 2014 05:38

If you can buy these parts for $12 that would be a great solution. Might even consider both sets. The ears on the ring are normally what fails. In the one situation I repaired, it was the telescoping shaft broken in three parts and not the ears on the ring part. I sunk numerous pins into the material (I think about 7 or 8 pins if I recall, each one about 1/8 inch in length) and epoxied it together as well. Epoxy alone didn't stand a chance, since this mechanism is under endless stress regardless of position. The workflow was epoxy first, and sink two pins without finishing the joints, then setting the other pins as it became stable and set up. Any movement pretty much ceased after the 2nd pin. Once the joint was solid I could sink as many pins as would fit without weakening the structure.

My own take on gluing the ears to other material is because of the spring stress, there simply is not enough meat around the ears to make a secure bond. My first attempt was epoxy only and involved quite a bit of surface area: it did not work.

After the pins were in, it was a matter of smoothing the surface again, sanding, and after 24 hrs set time I finish-sanded and painted that part after determining there was no rubbing or binding whatsoever. I could do the next one faster, but this project took a fair amount of time. Just the tonearm installation was a trial. If you take the arm out, you lose the exact positioning of the related components underneath, there is a bit of a trick to it. So you'd want really good pictures I guess. Klaus' suggestion of machining parts is very good.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by Dualmaniac » 07 Jul 2014 00:12

I shifted some priorities and got the tonearm off today. As expected, the "ears" are broken off. From what I can see, I think that the lift lever & mechanism are fine. The plastic "ear" assembly is bonded well to the tonearm ring and doesn't want to come off even if a new one was available. I assume that I definitely need a complete tonearm. I'll try Walmart on the way home.
Meanwhile, there are some questions I hope I can find an answer. Would Item 73, Tonearm Complete, 218238 be a complete tonearm including the rings? I haven't yet checked the 1219 manual to see if the part number is the same, but that I will do.
Would someone with a good 1229 be able to get me precise dimension of the distance from the bottom of the bearing (69, 216810) to the end of the ring shaft in both the single and multi positions? Sorry I can't take pictures to easily show what I mean.
Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by mrow2 » 07 Jul 2014 02:55

Tonearm complete is a tonearm with the gimbal and related. It's whatever the seller of a used one wants it to be, so I'd look for the most complete ones available and then sell off all the extra pieces maybe for a break-even on the project or close to it! I know the 1219 had a mid-life revision (Klaus mentioned); there are differences throughout but I am still thinking this part of it might be the same. But do whatever research you can prior to buying one. Now, if Walmart does have this in stock, problem solved..... My experience is that they have trouble keeping soda pop, Choc syrup and peanut butter in stock, so I'm not confident about tonearms. The 1219 part number would not likely be the same, for one thing the tonearm headshell is styled differently. I think I mentioned you could possibly swap headshells from one to the other. The gimbal ring itself may be different, that is something to scrutinize. With a Q it would for certain be different. There are possible options here, may be that the gimbal is identical and if so you might just change that. Best solution is to buy a 1229 arm complete, you'd know you have the right pieces and some spares to sell.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by lreneat » 12 Jul 2014 23:10

I'm new to this forum, but have worked on Duals: 1215S, 1218, 1219, 1229, 1241 & 601 for the last couple of years.

Here's my problem with the Dual 1229:

The Service Manual Ref. Numbered items are: 273, 274 & 276. These are clashing against each other in such a way that the tonearm movement is hampered and binding. Using a working Dual 1219 on the work table as an exact visible guide shows me that something is not allowing these part items to move unhindered past each other so that the tonearm can remain in a neutral free position. If I can get past this problem, I should be home free.
Does anyone in the Dual Forum know what is wrong here and how to correct the problem? I don't think that any of the parts are bent.

Signed,

Stumped and out of luck so far. :-(

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Re: Silicone oil 300K vs. 500K

Post by lreneat » 12 Jul 2014 23:31

I noticed that silicone 300 000 was suggested for being used in the Dual tonearm cuing cylinder. I know what is listed in the 1229 Dual Service Manual, but 300 000 is just too thin to work well in the 1229. Every time I used the 300 000 the tonearm dropped too fast. Every Dual model I have, plus 1 BIC980 I serviced, I have used the 500 000 in provides a nice slow drop to the record. If you are using better phono cartridges, you will much prefer the slower drop of the tonearm to the record. I suggest not wasting any time and effort using the 300 000 silicone oil. The 500 000 should also remain more put in the cylinder as well due to it's extra thickness. The 500 000 silicone oil I bought was found at a place where people hand remote race cars on inside and outside racetracks.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by dualcan » 13 Jul 2014 01:13

Hi,
Did you mean 273, 4 and 5 perhaps? 276 is the size (7",10",12") positioning lever and has nothing to do with the other three.
As for 273,4 and 5, these are the latching pawl and its latch (square spacer) and washer. They are responsible to hold the main switch arm and through it, the ac power switch 129 in the "power on" position, once the T.arm leaves its rest post.
If you have problems with these three, then the power to the motor is not staying on or is problematic. For the adjustment of 273 and 4 see page Dual manual page 14, fig 26.
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by mrow2 » 13 Jul 2014 01:32

I have used both 300,000 and 500,000 silicone. Race car type seems fine, especially if we are talking about the Kyosil which I think you recommended originally. I use a combination of thicknesses but if 500,000 works better then use that. I have found that it varies especially if adding to existing, which I do in order to simplify the exercise.

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Re: Dual 1229 Repair

Post by lreneat » 14 Jul 2014 01:12

Can you tell me if there is any adjustment option on part #201 Segment complete? If an adjustment exists, It must be on the other hidden side of the Segment complete. I have adjusted the sliding bar screw #189 and the part referred to as (N). These seem to be in good balance so that the auto switching works as it should. What options do I have if part #'s 201 and 273/274 can't be adjusted to get tonearm to be freed from it's binding automatic state? Replace part(s)? All auto function bars and connecting parts appear to be in undamaged good condition. At some point here the available adjustment options come to an end. Parts turntable?